Is espionage internationally tollerated?
This might be my perception being biased from what media is reporting about.
But how I see it, here in Germany it is usually reported in media like:
"Spy [Name] was convicted of having transfered [SensibleData] to [SecretService] of [State]. This means [Impact]. He will now face [JuristicalMeasures]"
But while I understand that such activity can't be kept unpunished, as otherwise you had nothing to loose if you just hoarded any sensible data you ever had access to.... just for the case. I still don't understand why the focus is on punishing the spy, rather than the contractor. I mean the spy acts either cause he has gains from it, or even worse, someone holds information to blackmail him into making use of his access to specific data. So by punishing him for doing it, you got rid of a single person that was willing to execute this activity, but it is safe to assume that the contractor has still the same amount of interest in getting access to sensible data and will most likely try to find another channel to obtain such data. And by rarely, if at all reacting political on these attempts, as long they are not getting revealed en mass, I can't see how taking measures against individuals has any real impact at all, considering that not rarely it are states financing the acquisition of such data, and with such resources, they probably will always be able to find others be willing to do that job, given the right pressure/payment. So I don't understand the rational behind this.
So my question is:
Is espionage internationally tolerated or, if not, what are political measures being taken to prevent or at least protect against it?
international-relations espionage
add a comment |
This might be my perception being biased from what media is reporting about.
But how I see it, here in Germany it is usually reported in media like:
"Spy [Name] was convicted of having transfered [SensibleData] to [SecretService] of [State]. This means [Impact]. He will now face [JuristicalMeasures]"
But while I understand that such activity can't be kept unpunished, as otherwise you had nothing to loose if you just hoarded any sensible data you ever had access to.... just for the case. I still don't understand why the focus is on punishing the spy, rather than the contractor. I mean the spy acts either cause he has gains from it, or even worse, someone holds information to blackmail him into making use of his access to specific data. So by punishing him for doing it, you got rid of a single person that was willing to execute this activity, but it is safe to assume that the contractor has still the same amount of interest in getting access to sensible data and will most likely try to find another channel to obtain such data. And by rarely, if at all reacting political on these attempts, as long they are not getting revealed en mass, I can't see how taking measures against individuals has any real impact at all, considering that not rarely it are states financing the acquisition of such data, and with such resources, they probably will always be able to find others be willing to do that job, given the right pressure/payment. So I don't understand the rational behind this.
So my question is:
Is espionage internationally tolerated or, if not, what are political measures being taken to prevent or at least protect against it?
international-relations espionage
1
Surely nobody likes to being spied upon. It probably is illegal too. Taking measures against individuals has some values, increases the costs for the other side. What else do you propose to do? Declaring war on everyone who is spying?
– Trilarion
4 hours ago
@Trilarion: What else to do is actually kind of part of my question. Or why not doing something else. Dunno.... but AFAIK there are other political instruments in between doing nothing and declaring war ;) And given any other instrument than "doing nothing" would be considered overkill, that's how I here define "it being tolerated" If my wording is confusing in that regards, I am open for proposing an edit. :)
– dhein
3 hours ago
1
You could maybe ask what means democratic countries use to efficiently fight international espionage?
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@Trilarion: you are right! I just realize that my way of phrasing it in a way to rant on the way medias report about it actually made it less clear what I was actually asking about. As in a break down, what you propose is pretty much what I intended to ask.
– dhein
3 hours ago
add a comment |
This might be my perception being biased from what media is reporting about.
But how I see it, here in Germany it is usually reported in media like:
"Spy [Name] was convicted of having transfered [SensibleData] to [SecretService] of [State]. This means [Impact]. He will now face [JuristicalMeasures]"
But while I understand that such activity can't be kept unpunished, as otherwise you had nothing to loose if you just hoarded any sensible data you ever had access to.... just for the case. I still don't understand why the focus is on punishing the spy, rather than the contractor. I mean the spy acts either cause he has gains from it, or even worse, someone holds information to blackmail him into making use of his access to specific data. So by punishing him for doing it, you got rid of a single person that was willing to execute this activity, but it is safe to assume that the contractor has still the same amount of interest in getting access to sensible data and will most likely try to find another channel to obtain such data. And by rarely, if at all reacting political on these attempts, as long they are not getting revealed en mass, I can't see how taking measures against individuals has any real impact at all, considering that not rarely it are states financing the acquisition of such data, and with such resources, they probably will always be able to find others be willing to do that job, given the right pressure/payment. So I don't understand the rational behind this.
So my question is:
Is espionage internationally tolerated or, if not, what are political measures being taken to prevent or at least protect against it?
international-relations espionage
This might be my perception being biased from what media is reporting about.
But how I see it, here in Germany it is usually reported in media like:
"Spy [Name] was convicted of having transfered [SensibleData] to [SecretService] of [State]. This means [Impact]. He will now face [JuristicalMeasures]"
But while I understand that such activity can't be kept unpunished, as otherwise you had nothing to loose if you just hoarded any sensible data you ever had access to.... just for the case. I still don't understand why the focus is on punishing the spy, rather than the contractor. I mean the spy acts either cause he has gains from it, or even worse, someone holds information to blackmail him into making use of his access to specific data. So by punishing him for doing it, you got rid of a single person that was willing to execute this activity, but it is safe to assume that the contractor has still the same amount of interest in getting access to sensible data and will most likely try to find another channel to obtain such data. And by rarely, if at all reacting political on these attempts, as long they are not getting revealed en mass, I can't see how taking measures against individuals has any real impact at all, considering that not rarely it are states financing the acquisition of such data, and with such resources, they probably will always be able to find others be willing to do that job, given the right pressure/payment. So I don't understand the rational behind this.
So my question is:
Is espionage internationally tolerated or, if not, what are political measures being taken to prevent or at least protect against it?
international-relations espionage
international-relations espionage
edited 3 hours ago
dhein
asked 5 hours ago
dheindhein
1908
1908
1
Surely nobody likes to being spied upon. It probably is illegal too. Taking measures against individuals has some values, increases the costs for the other side. What else do you propose to do? Declaring war on everyone who is spying?
– Trilarion
4 hours ago
@Trilarion: What else to do is actually kind of part of my question. Or why not doing something else. Dunno.... but AFAIK there are other political instruments in between doing nothing and declaring war ;) And given any other instrument than "doing nothing" would be considered overkill, that's how I here define "it being tolerated" If my wording is confusing in that regards, I am open for proposing an edit. :)
– dhein
3 hours ago
1
You could maybe ask what means democratic countries use to efficiently fight international espionage?
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@Trilarion: you are right! I just realize that my way of phrasing it in a way to rant on the way medias report about it actually made it less clear what I was actually asking about. As in a break down, what you propose is pretty much what I intended to ask.
– dhein
3 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Surely nobody likes to being spied upon. It probably is illegal too. Taking measures against individuals has some values, increases the costs for the other side. What else do you propose to do? Declaring war on everyone who is spying?
– Trilarion
4 hours ago
@Trilarion: What else to do is actually kind of part of my question. Or why not doing something else. Dunno.... but AFAIK there are other political instruments in between doing nothing and declaring war ;) And given any other instrument than "doing nothing" would be considered overkill, that's how I here define "it being tolerated" If my wording is confusing in that regards, I am open for proposing an edit. :)
– dhein
3 hours ago
1
You could maybe ask what means democratic countries use to efficiently fight international espionage?
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@Trilarion: you are right! I just realize that my way of phrasing it in a way to rant on the way medias report about it actually made it less clear what I was actually asking about. As in a break down, what you propose is pretty much what I intended to ask.
– dhein
3 hours ago
1
1
Surely nobody likes to being spied upon. It probably is illegal too. Taking measures against individuals has some values, increases the costs for the other side. What else do you propose to do? Declaring war on everyone who is spying?
– Trilarion
4 hours ago
Surely nobody likes to being spied upon. It probably is illegal too. Taking measures against individuals has some values, increases the costs for the other side. What else do you propose to do? Declaring war on everyone who is spying?
– Trilarion
4 hours ago
@Trilarion: What else to do is actually kind of part of my question. Or why not doing something else. Dunno.... but AFAIK there are other political instruments in between doing nothing and declaring war ;) And given any other instrument than "doing nothing" would be considered overkill, that's how I here define "it being tolerated" If my wording is confusing in that regards, I am open for proposing an edit. :)
– dhein
3 hours ago
@Trilarion: What else to do is actually kind of part of my question. Or why not doing something else. Dunno.... but AFAIK there are other political instruments in between doing nothing and declaring war ;) And given any other instrument than "doing nothing" would be considered overkill, that's how I here define "it being tolerated" If my wording is confusing in that regards, I am open for proposing an edit. :)
– dhein
3 hours ago
1
1
You could maybe ask what means democratic countries use to efficiently fight international espionage?
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
You could maybe ask what means democratic countries use to efficiently fight international espionage?
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@Trilarion: you are right! I just realize that my way of phrasing it in a way to rant on the way medias report about it actually made it less clear what I was actually asking about. As in a break down, what you propose is pretty much what I intended to ask.
– dhein
3 hours ago
@Trilarion: you are right! I just realize that my way of phrasing it in a way to rant on the way medias report about it actually made it less clear what I was actually asking about. As in a break down, what you propose is pretty much what I intended to ask.
– dhein
3 hours ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
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oldest
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There are three levels to state "espionage":
1: Open data gathering. Embassy staff (possibly including local employees) buy newspapers and maps, visit companies and trade shows, and generally talk to people openly. This is perfectly legal in most places, although in some states the line between "public" and "secret" is a lot fuzzier; e.g. trying to get an accurate inflation figure by monitoring prices might be considered economic espionage if the government doesn't want the real number known.
2: Covert data gathering by accredited diplomats. People with diplomatic immunity cannot be arrested even if they break the law. So if, for instance, if a diplomat plants a bug when visiting a factory in order to spy on boardroom discussions, that is illegal, but the only thing the host nation can do is eject the diplomat. Everybody does stuff like this, and its not really worth ejecting the "guilty" diplomat because then you will just have to monitor his successor. So this is "tolerated" in the sense that nobody bothers trying to punish the guilty party; they just make it as hard as possible to get any information.
3: Covert data gathering and influencing of local affairs via local covert agents. These are the people who get arrested and thrown in prison for decades. The people who were paying them are accredited diplomats: see (2) above.
Everybody respects diplomatic immunity because otherwise nobody would risk sending their diplomats to you: while it is widely abused, allowing the local police to arrest a diplomat puts them at great risk of being held hostage by an unfriendly host state under false charges. Also if a diplomat commits a serious crime outside of their duties then their government may decide to waive diplomatic immunity, allowing the criminal to be arrested.
2
I think this leaves open the question of why diplomatic immunity is respected, given that it is abused in this way. It's not physically true that "the only thing you can do is eject them and accept their successor", so there's a deeper dimension here. Even recourse to "international law says so" begs the question, because it would seem reasonable for international law to include provisions against espionage.
– IMSoP
3 hours ago
Note, I edited the OP. But as I see it this shouldn't have changed the validity of this providing an answer to my question.
– dhein
3 hours ago
@IMSoP: Yeah, good point. That's actually too deep, that I would have come up with it myself, but that's pretty much the kind of info I am looking for.
– dhein
3 hours ago
I've added an extra paragraph and a couple of links about diplomatic immunity.
– Paul Johnson
3 hours ago
add a comment |
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There are three levels to state "espionage":
1: Open data gathering. Embassy staff (possibly including local employees) buy newspapers and maps, visit companies and trade shows, and generally talk to people openly. This is perfectly legal in most places, although in some states the line between "public" and "secret" is a lot fuzzier; e.g. trying to get an accurate inflation figure by monitoring prices might be considered economic espionage if the government doesn't want the real number known.
2: Covert data gathering by accredited diplomats. People with diplomatic immunity cannot be arrested even if they break the law. So if, for instance, if a diplomat plants a bug when visiting a factory in order to spy on boardroom discussions, that is illegal, but the only thing the host nation can do is eject the diplomat. Everybody does stuff like this, and its not really worth ejecting the "guilty" diplomat because then you will just have to monitor his successor. So this is "tolerated" in the sense that nobody bothers trying to punish the guilty party; they just make it as hard as possible to get any information.
3: Covert data gathering and influencing of local affairs via local covert agents. These are the people who get arrested and thrown in prison for decades. The people who were paying them are accredited diplomats: see (2) above.
Everybody respects diplomatic immunity because otherwise nobody would risk sending their diplomats to you: while it is widely abused, allowing the local police to arrest a diplomat puts them at great risk of being held hostage by an unfriendly host state under false charges. Also if a diplomat commits a serious crime outside of their duties then their government may decide to waive diplomatic immunity, allowing the criminal to be arrested.
2
I think this leaves open the question of why diplomatic immunity is respected, given that it is abused in this way. It's not physically true that "the only thing you can do is eject them and accept their successor", so there's a deeper dimension here. Even recourse to "international law says so" begs the question, because it would seem reasonable for international law to include provisions against espionage.
– IMSoP
3 hours ago
Note, I edited the OP. But as I see it this shouldn't have changed the validity of this providing an answer to my question.
– dhein
3 hours ago
@IMSoP: Yeah, good point. That's actually too deep, that I would have come up with it myself, but that's pretty much the kind of info I am looking for.
– dhein
3 hours ago
I've added an extra paragraph and a couple of links about diplomatic immunity.
– Paul Johnson
3 hours ago
add a comment |
There are three levels to state "espionage":
1: Open data gathering. Embassy staff (possibly including local employees) buy newspapers and maps, visit companies and trade shows, and generally talk to people openly. This is perfectly legal in most places, although in some states the line between "public" and "secret" is a lot fuzzier; e.g. trying to get an accurate inflation figure by monitoring prices might be considered economic espionage if the government doesn't want the real number known.
2: Covert data gathering by accredited diplomats. People with diplomatic immunity cannot be arrested even if they break the law. So if, for instance, if a diplomat plants a bug when visiting a factory in order to spy on boardroom discussions, that is illegal, but the only thing the host nation can do is eject the diplomat. Everybody does stuff like this, and its not really worth ejecting the "guilty" diplomat because then you will just have to monitor his successor. So this is "tolerated" in the sense that nobody bothers trying to punish the guilty party; they just make it as hard as possible to get any information.
3: Covert data gathering and influencing of local affairs via local covert agents. These are the people who get arrested and thrown in prison for decades. The people who were paying them are accredited diplomats: see (2) above.
Everybody respects diplomatic immunity because otherwise nobody would risk sending their diplomats to you: while it is widely abused, allowing the local police to arrest a diplomat puts them at great risk of being held hostage by an unfriendly host state under false charges. Also if a diplomat commits a serious crime outside of their duties then their government may decide to waive diplomatic immunity, allowing the criminal to be arrested.
2
I think this leaves open the question of why diplomatic immunity is respected, given that it is abused in this way. It's not physically true that "the only thing you can do is eject them and accept their successor", so there's a deeper dimension here. Even recourse to "international law says so" begs the question, because it would seem reasonable for international law to include provisions against espionage.
– IMSoP
3 hours ago
Note, I edited the OP. But as I see it this shouldn't have changed the validity of this providing an answer to my question.
– dhein
3 hours ago
@IMSoP: Yeah, good point. That's actually too deep, that I would have come up with it myself, but that's pretty much the kind of info I am looking for.
– dhein
3 hours ago
I've added an extra paragraph and a couple of links about diplomatic immunity.
– Paul Johnson
3 hours ago
add a comment |
There are three levels to state "espionage":
1: Open data gathering. Embassy staff (possibly including local employees) buy newspapers and maps, visit companies and trade shows, and generally talk to people openly. This is perfectly legal in most places, although in some states the line between "public" and "secret" is a lot fuzzier; e.g. trying to get an accurate inflation figure by monitoring prices might be considered economic espionage if the government doesn't want the real number known.
2: Covert data gathering by accredited diplomats. People with diplomatic immunity cannot be arrested even if they break the law. So if, for instance, if a diplomat plants a bug when visiting a factory in order to spy on boardroom discussions, that is illegal, but the only thing the host nation can do is eject the diplomat. Everybody does stuff like this, and its not really worth ejecting the "guilty" diplomat because then you will just have to monitor his successor. So this is "tolerated" in the sense that nobody bothers trying to punish the guilty party; they just make it as hard as possible to get any information.
3: Covert data gathering and influencing of local affairs via local covert agents. These are the people who get arrested and thrown in prison for decades. The people who were paying them are accredited diplomats: see (2) above.
Everybody respects diplomatic immunity because otherwise nobody would risk sending their diplomats to you: while it is widely abused, allowing the local police to arrest a diplomat puts them at great risk of being held hostage by an unfriendly host state under false charges. Also if a diplomat commits a serious crime outside of their duties then their government may decide to waive diplomatic immunity, allowing the criminal to be arrested.
There are three levels to state "espionage":
1: Open data gathering. Embassy staff (possibly including local employees) buy newspapers and maps, visit companies and trade shows, and generally talk to people openly. This is perfectly legal in most places, although in some states the line between "public" and "secret" is a lot fuzzier; e.g. trying to get an accurate inflation figure by monitoring prices might be considered economic espionage if the government doesn't want the real number known.
2: Covert data gathering by accredited diplomats. People with diplomatic immunity cannot be arrested even if they break the law. So if, for instance, if a diplomat plants a bug when visiting a factory in order to spy on boardroom discussions, that is illegal, but the only thing the host nation can do is eject the diplomat. Everybody does stuff like this, and its not really worth ejecting the "guilty" diplomat because then you will just have to monitor his successor. So this is "tolerated" in the sense that nobody bothers trying to punish the guilty party; they just make it as hard as possible to get any information.
3: Covert data gathering and influencing of local affairs via local covert agents. These are the people who get arrested and thrown in prison for decades. The people who were paying them are accredited diplomats: see (2) above.
Everybody respects diplomatic immunity because otherwise nobody would risk sending their diplomats to you: while it is widely abused, allowing the local police to arrest a diplomat puts them at great risk of being held hostage by an unfriendly host state under false charges. Also if a diplomat commits a serious crime outside of their duties then their government may decide to waive diplomatic immunity, allowing the criminal to be arrested.
edited 3 hours ago
answered 3 hours ago
Paul JohnsonPaul Johnson
7,96541834
7,96541834
2
I think this leaves open the question of why diplomatic immunity is respected, given that it is abused in this way. It's not physically true that "the only thing you can do is eject them and accept their successor", so there's a deeper dimension here. Even recourse to "international law says so" begs the question, because it would seem reasonable for international law to include provisions against espionage.
– IMSoP
3 hours ago
Note, I edited the OP. But as I see it this shouldn't have changed the validity of this providing an answer to my question.
– dhein
3 hours ago
@IMSoP: Yeah, good point. That's actually too deep, that I would have come up with it myself, but that's pretty much the kind of info I am looking for.
– dhein
3 hours ago
I've added an extra paragraph and a couple of links about diplomatic immunity.
– Paul Johnson
3 hours ago
add a comment |
2
I think this leaves open the question of why diplomatic immunity is respected, given that it is abused in this way. It's not physically true that "the only thing you can do is eject them and accept their successor", so there's a deeper dimension here. Even recourse to "international law says so" begs the question, because it would seem reasonable for international law to include provisions against espionage.
– IMSoP
3 hours ago
Note, I edited the OP. But as I see it this shouldn't have changed the validity of this providing an answer to my question.
– dhein
3 hours ago
@IMSoP: Yeah, good point. That's actually too deep, that I would have come up with it myself, but that's pretty much the kind of info I am looking for.
– dhein
3 hours ago
I've added an extra paragraph and a couple of links about diplomatic immunity.
– Paul Johnson
3 hours ago
2
2
I think this leaves open the question of why diplomatic immunity is respected, given that it is abused in this way. It's not physically true that "the only thing you can do is eject them and accept their successor", so there's a deeper dimension here. Even recourse to "international law says so" begs the question, because it would seem reasonable for international law to include provisions against espionage.
– IMSoP
3 hours ago
I think this leaves open the question of why diplomatic immunity is respected, given that it is abused in this way. It's not physically true that "the only thing you can do is eject them and accept their successor", so there's a deeper dimension here. Even recourse to "international law says so" begs the question, because it would seem reasonable for international law to include provisions against espionage.
– IMSoP
3 hours ago
Note, I edited the OP. But as I see it this shouldn't have changed the validity of this providing an answer to my question.
– dhein
3 hours ago
Note, I edited the OP. But as I see it this shouldn't have changed the validity of this providing an answer to my question.
– dhein
3 hours ago
@IMSoP: Yeah, good point. That's actually too deep, that I would have come up with it myself, but that's pretty much the kind of info I am looking for.
– dhein
3 hours ago
@IMSoP: Yeah, good point. That's actually too deep, that I would have come up with it myself, but that's pretty much the kind of info I am looking for.
– dhein
3 hours ago
I've added an extra paragraph and a couple of links about diplomatic immunity.
– Paul Johnson
3 hours ago
I've added an extra paragraph and a couple of links about diplomatic immunity.
– Paul Johnson
3 hours ago
add a comment |
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1
Surely nobody likes to being spied upon. It probably is illegal too. Taking measures against individuals has some values, increases the costs for the other side. What else do you propose to do? Declaring war on everyone who is spying?
– Trilarion
4 hours ago
@Trilarion: What else to do is actually kind of part of my question. Or why not doing something else. Dunno.... but AFAIK there are other political instruments in between doing nothing and declaring war ;) And given any other instrument than "doing nothing" would be considered overkill, that's how I here define "it being tolerated" If my wording is confusing in that regards, I am open for proposing an edit. :)
– dhein
3 hours ago
1
You could maybe ask what means democratic countries use to efficiently fight international espionage?
– Trilarion
3 hours ago
@Trilarion: you are right! I just realize that my way of phrasing it in a way to rant on the way medias report about it actually made it less clear what I was actually asking about. As in a break down, what you propose is pretty much what I intended to ask.
– dhein
3 hours ago