Usage and meaning of “up” in “…worth at least a thousand pounds up in London”












4
















Two chairs like that must be worth at least a thousand pounds up in London.




I don't know what the 'up' mean in the sentence. I'm even not sure which words — perhaps either 'a thousand pounds' or 'in London' — are modified by it.










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  • It is ambiguous. On first reading I thought it was saying "a thousand pounds up" -- that is to say "over a thousand pounds". But that interpretation clashes with the use of "at least" to modify the price. It's poorly worded.

    – Hot Licks
    4 hours ago











  • I agree with @HotLicks: either "at least" or "up" is superfluous: "... worth at least a thousand pounds" or "worth a thousand pounds up(wards)".

    – TrevorD
    4 hours ago






  • 1





    @TrevorD - But my point was that, on second reading, you see that it's "up in London". The old "garden path".

    – Hot Licks
    3 hours ago











  • @HotLicks Sorry, I didn't even see that meaning - but I now agree it's ambiguous.

    – TrevorD
    3 hours ago











  • @TrevorD - Getting it right is probably actually harder for someone coming in and reading an extracted sentence than reading the stuff in a book, since your eyes aren't flowing with the text, and so they tend to "jump ahead" to the phrase without first absorbing the lead-in verbiage.

    – Hot Licks
    3 hours ago
















4
















Two chairs like that must be worth at least a thousand pounds up in London.




I don't know what the 'up' mean in the sentence. I'm even not sure which words — perhaps either 'a thousand pounds' or 'in London' — are modified by it.










share|improve this question









New contributor




tasira is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





















  • It is ambiguous. On first reading I thought it was saying "a thousand pounds up" -- that is to say "over a thousand pounds". But that interpretation clashes with the use of "at least" to modify the price. It's poorly worded.

    – Hot Licks
    4 hours ago











  • I agree with @HotLicks: either "at least" or "up" is superfluous: "... worth at least a thousand pounds" or "worth a thousand pounds up(wards)".

    – TrevorD
    4 hours ago






  • 1





    @TrevorD - But my point was that, on second reading, you see that it's "up in London". The old "garden path".

    – Hot Licks
    3 hours ago











  • @HotLicks Sorry, I didn't even see that meaning - but I now agree it's ambiguous.

    – TrevorD
    3 hours ago











  • @TrevorD - Getting it right is probably actually harder for someone coming in and reading an extracted sentence than reading the stuff in a book, since your eyes aren't flowing with the text, and so they tend to "jump ahead" to the phrase without first absorbing the lead-in verbiage.

    – Hot Licks
    3 hours ago














4












4








4









Two chairs like that must be worth at least a thousand pounds up in London.




I don't know what the 'up' mean in the sentence. I'm even not sure which words — perhaps either 'a thousand pounds' or 'in London' — are modified by it.










share|improve this question









New contributor




tasira is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.













Two chairs like that must be worth at least a thousand pounds up in London.




I don't know what the 'up' mean in the sentence. I'm even not sure which words — perhaps either 'a thousand pounds' or 'in London' — are modified by it.







meaning






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edited 1 hour ago









Barmar

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asked 8 hours ago









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  • It is ambiguous. On first reading I thought it was saying "a thousand pounds up" -- that is to say "over a thousand pounds". But that interpretation clashes with the use of "at least" to modify the price. It's poorly worded.

    – Hot Licks
    4 hours ago











  • I agree with @HotLicks: either "at least" or "up" is superfluous: "... worth at least a thousand pounds" or "worth a thousand pounds up(wards)".

    – TrevorD
    4 hours ago






  • 1





    @TrevorD - But my point was that, on second reading, you see that it's "up in London". The old "garden path".

    – Hot Licks
    3 hours ago











  • @HotLicks Sorry, I didn't even see that meaning - but I now agree it's ambiguous.

    – TrevorD
    3 hours ago











  • @TrevorD - Getting it right is probably actually harder for someone coming in and reading an extracted sentence than reading the stuff in a book, since your eyes aren't flowing with the text, and so they tend to "jump ahead" to the phrase without first absorbing the lead-in verbiage.

    – Hot Licks
    3 hours ago



















  • It is ambiguous. On first reading I thought it was saying "a thousand pounds up" -- that is to say "over a thousand pounds". But that interpretation clashes with the use of "at least" to modify the price. It's poorly worded.

    – Hot Licks
    4 hours ago











  • I agree with @HotLicks: either "at least" or "up" is superfluous: "... worth at least a thousand pounds" or "worth a thousand pounds up(wards)".

    – TrevorD
    4 hours ago






  • 1





    @TrevorD - But my point was that, on second reading, you see that it's "up in London". The old "garden path".

    – Hot Licks
    3 hours ago











  • @HotLicks Sorry, I didn't even see that meaning - but I now agree it's ambiguous.

    – TrevorD
    3 hours ago











  • @TrevorD - Getting it right is probably actually harder for someone coming in and reading an extracted sentence than reading the stuff in a book, since your eyes aren't flowing with the text, and so they tend to "jump ahead" to the phrase without first absorbing the lead-in verbiage.

    – Hot Licks
    3 hours ago

















It is ambiguous. On first reading I thought it was saying "a thousand pounds up" -- that is to say "over a thousand pounds". But that interpretation clashes with the use of "at least" to modify the price. It's poorly worded.

– Hot Licks
4 hours ago





It is ambiguous. On first reading I thought it was saying "a thousand pounds up" -- that is to say "over a thousand pounds". But that interpretation clashes with the use of "at least" to modify the price. It's poorly worded.

– Hot Licks
4 hours ago













I agree with @HotLicks: either "at least" or "up" is superfluous: "... worth at least a thousand pounds" or "worth a thousand pounds up(wards)".

– TrevorD
4 hours ago





I agree with @HotLicks: either "at least" or "up" is superfluous: "... worth at least a thousand pounds" or "worth a thousand pounds up(wards)".

– TrevorD
4 hours ago




1




1





@TrevorD - But my point was that, on second reading, you see that it's "up in London". The old "garden path".

– Hot Licks
3 hours ago





@TrevorD - But my point was that, on second reading, you see that it's "up in London". The old "garden path".

– Hot Licks
3 hours ago













@HotLicks Sorry, I didn't even see that meaning - but I now agree it's ambiguous.

– TrevorD
3 hours ago





@HotLicks Sorry, I didn't even see that meaning - but I now agree it's ambiguous.

– TrevorD
3 hours ago













@TrevorD - Getting it right is probably actually harder for someone coming in and reading an extracted sentence than reading the stuff in a book, since your eyes aren't flowing with the text, and so they tend to "jump ahead" to the phrase without first absorbing the lead-in verbiage.

– Hot Licks
3 hours ago





@TrevorD - Getting it right is probably actually harder for someone coming in and reading an extracted sentence than reading the stuff in a book, since your eyes aren't flowing with the text, and so they tend to "jump ahead" to the phrase without first absorbing the lead-in verbiage.

– Hot Licks
3 hours ago










2 Answers
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7














"Up" and "down" have meanings that refer to towns, cities, and other possible destinations.



Compare this meaning and example sentence for "up" in the Oxford Learners' Dictionary:




(adverb) 1. towards or in a higher position



They live up in the mountains.




The mountains are in a higher position. It'd be possible to just say "they live in the mountains," but the "up" gives an idea of relative position - they live up in the mountains compared to where the speaker is talking. (The valley? The plains? Anywhere else lower?)



What gets tricky is what precisely "higher position" is referring to. Is it elevation? Latitude? Political or economic prestige? For the last value (prestige) there is a specific meaning for "up":




(adverb) 4. to or at an important place, especially a large city



We're going up to New York for the day.




New York is down in elevation and latitude from Rochester, but someone from Rochester may well go "up to New York."



This adverb up commonly comes before prepositions like "up to," "up in," and "up at." "Down" has a contrasting meaning, and different locales or individuals may have their own idea of whether a city qualifies as "up" or "down" relative to them. (One can use both "down in London" and "up in London.")






share|improve this answer



















  • 1





    Can "up" also mean northwards?

    – stannius
    5 hours ago













  • @stannius Couldn't say anything about formal use, but it certainly can in casual use. I've (in the US) seen "up in Canada" used pretty frequently.

    – Hearth
    5 hours ago











  • @Hearth - That's because people go to Canada to get high.

    – Hot Licks
    4 hours ago











  • @stannius Yes, and in the UK, which is where London is, that's exactly what it will mean.

    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    1 hour ago













  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit: I might be missing something in your comment, but you're aware that London is in the south east of England (and hence of the UK)?

    – Steve Melnikoff
    12 mins ago



















0














I (born 1964) was brought up south of London so I have personal experience of this problem. We always went up to London. As there was no obvious altitude difference, I always assumed it meant "up north" but my dad (born 1916) assured me that London was always up. He was brought up north-west of London. He further told me that it was a rigid convention on the railways (and we would always have travelled by train) that the up train went to London and the down train came back.



The Free Dictionary supports this claim that there are two different definitions in use, and this document from the the Indian Railway Fan Club (see section on "Up and Down Trains") says




Down refers to a train travelling away from its headquarters (i.e., the homing railway) or from its Divisional headquarters, whichever is closer. Up refers to a train travelling towards its headquarters or divisional HQ, whichever is closer. [...]

History

In the UK, the convention was that all trains going to London were "up", and all those going away from it were "down".




I am pretty certain (from experience) that my dad was right, but equally certain that it is not common practice these days. It may well depend on direction - you might be more likely to go up to London if it were east than if it were south. I would definitely go down to London these days from where I am now in Scotland.



In short, I am sure up is definitely the direction of London, but we cannot be sure, without further context (i.e. date and location) if it meant "up north(ish)" or "towards the metropolis".



In this example, the implication is clearly that prices will be higher in London than where they are now.






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    2 Answers
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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

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    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    7














    "Up" and "down" have meanings that refer to towns, cities, and other possible destinations.



    Compare this meaning and example sentence for "up" in the Oxford Learners' Dictionary:




    (adverb) 1. towards or in a higher position



    They live up in the mountains.




    The mountains are in a higher position. It'd be possible to just say "they live in the mountains," but the "up" gives an idea of relative position - they live up in the mountains compared to where the speaker is talking. (The valley? The plains? Anywhere else lower?)



    What gets tricky is what precisely "higher position" is referring to. Is it elevation? Latitude? Political or economic prestige? For the last value (prestige) there is a specific meaning for "up":




    (adverb) 4. to or at an important place, especially a large city



    We're going up to New York for the day.




    New York is down in elevation and latitude from Rochester, but someone from Rochester may well go "up to New York."



    This adverb up commonly comes before prepositions like "up to," "up in," and "up at." "Down" has a contrasting meaning, and different locales or individuals may have their own idea of whether a city qualifies as "up" or "down" relative to them. (One can use both "down in London" and "up in London.")






    share|improve this answer



















    • 1





      Can "up" also mean northwards?

      – stannius
      5 hours ago













    • @stannius Couldn't say anything about formal use, but it certainly can in casual use. I've (in the US) seen "up in Canada" used pretty frequently.

      – Hearth
      5 hours ago











    • @Hearth - That's because people go to Canada to get high.

      – Hot Licks
      4 hours ago











    • @stannius Yes, and in the UK, which is where London is, that's exactly what it will mean.

      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      1 hour ago













    • @LightnessRacesinOrbit: I might be missing something in your comment, but you're aware that London is in the south east of England (and hence of the UK)?

      – Steve Melnikoff
      12 mins ago
















    7














    "Up" and "down" have meanings that refer to towns, cities, and other possible destinations.



    Compare this meaning and example sentence for "up" in the Oxford Learners' Dictionary:




    (adverb) 1. towards or in a higher position



    They live up in the mountains.




    The mountains are in a higher position. It'd be possible to just say "they live in the mountains," but the "up" gives an idea of relative position - they live up in the mountains compared to where the speaker is talking. (The valley? The plains? Anywhere else lower?)



    What gets tricky is what precisely "higher position" is referring to. Is it elevation? Latitude? Political or economic prestige? For the last value (prestige) there is a specific meaning for "up":




    (adverb) 4. to or at an important place, especially a large city



    We're going up to New York for the day.




    New York is down in elevation and latitude from Rochester, but someone from Rochester may well go "up to New York."



    This adverb up commonly comes before prepositions like "up to," "up in," and "up at." "Down" has a contrasting meaning, and different locales or individuals may have their own idea of whether a city qualifies as "up" or "down" relative to them. (One can use both "down in London" and "up in London.")






    share|improve this answer



















    • 1





      Can "up" also mean northwards?

      – stannius
      5 hours ago













    • @stannius Couldn't say anything about formal use, but it certainly can in casual use. I've (in the US) seen "up in Canada" used pretty frequently.

      – Hearth
      5 hours ago











    • @Hearth - That's because people go to Canada to get high.

      – Hot Licks
      4 hours ago











    • @stannius Yes, and in the UK, which is where London is, that's exactly what it will mean.

      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      1 hour ago













    • @LightnessRacesinOrbit: I might be missing something in your comment, but you're aware that London is in the south east of England (and hence of the UK)?

      – Steve Melnikoff
      12 mins ago














    7












    7








    7







    "Up" and "down" have meanings that refer to towns, cities, and other possible destinations.



    Compare this meaning and example sentence for "up" in the Oxford Learners' Dictionary:




    (adverb) 1. towards or in a higher position



    They live up in the mountains.




    The mountains are in a higher position. It'd be possible to just say "they live in the mountains," but the "up" gives an idea of relative position - they live up in the mountains compared to where the speaker is talking. (The valley? The plains? Anywhere else lower?)



    What gets tricky is what precisely "higher position" is referring to. Is it elevation? Latitude? Political or economic prestige? For the last value (prestige) there is a specific meaning for "up":




    (adverb) 4. to or at an important place, especially a large city



    We're going up to New York for the day.




    New York is down in elevation and latitude from Rochester, but someone from Rochester may well go "up to New York."



    This adverb up commonly comes before prepositions like "up to," "up in," and "up at." "Down" has a contrasting meaning, and different locales or individuals may have their own idea of whether a city qualifies as "up" or "down" relative to them. (One can use both "down in London" and "up in London.")






    share|improve this answer













    "Up" and "down" have meanings that refer to towns, cities, and other possible destinations.



    Compare this meaning and example sentence for "up" in the Oxford Learners' Dictionary:




    (adverb) 1. towards or in a higher position



    They live up in the mountains.




    The mountains are in a higher position. It'd be possible to just say "they live in the mountains," but the "up" gives an idea of relative position - they live up in the mountains compared to where the speaker is talking. (The valley? The plains? Anywhere else lower?)



    What gets tricky is what precisely "higher position" is referring to. Is it elevation? Latitude? Political or economic prestige? For the last value (prestige) there is a specific meaning for "up":




    (adverb) 4. to or at an important place, especially a large city



    We're going up to New York for the day.




    New York is down in elevation and latitude from Rochester, but someone from Rochester may well go "up to New York."



    This adverb up commonly comes before prepositions like "up to," "up in," and "up at." "Down" has a contrasting meaning, and different locales or individuals may have their own idea of whether a city qualifies as "up" or "down" relative to them. (One can use both "down in London" and "up in London.")







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 7 hours ago









    TaliesinMerlinTaliesinMerlin

    5,6021127




    5,6021127








    • 1





      Can "up" also mean northwards?

      – stannius
      5 hours ago













    • @stannius Couldn't say anything about formal use, but it certainly can in casual use. I've (in the US) seen "up in Canada" used pretty frequently.

      – Hearth
      5 hours ago











    • @Hearth - That's because people go to Canada to get high.

      – Hot Licks
      4 hours ago











    • @stannius Yes, and in the UK, which is where London is, that's exactly what it will mean.

      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      1 hour ago













    • @LightnessRacesinOrbit: I might be missing something in your comment, but you're aware that London is in the south east of England (and hence of the UK)?

      – Steve Melnikoff
      12 mins ago














    • 1





      Can "up" also mean northwards?

      – stannius
      5 hours ago













    • @stannius Couldn't say anything about formal use, but it certainly can in casual use. I've (in the US) seen "up in Canada" used pretty frequently.

      – Hearth
      5 hours ago











    • @Hearth - That's because people go to Canada to get high.

      – Hot Licks
      4 hours ago











    • @stannius Yes, and in the UK, which is where London is, that's exactly what it will mean.

      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      1 hour ago













    • @LightnessRacesinOrbit: I might be missing something in your comment, but you're aware that London is in the south east of England (and hence of the UK)?

      – Steve Melnikoff
      12 mins ago








    1




    1





    Can "up" also mean northwards?

    – stannius
    5 hours ago







    Can "up" also mean northwards?

    – stannius
    5 hours ago















    @stannius Couldn't say anything about formal use, but it certainly can in casual use. I've (in the US) seen "up in Canada" used pretty frequently.

    – Hearth
    5 hours ago





    @stannius Couldn't say anything about formal use, but it certainly can in casual use. I've (in the US) seen "up in Canada" used pretty frequently.

    – Hearth
    5 hours ago













    @Hearth - That's because people go to Canada to get high.

    – Hot Licks
    4 hours ago





    @Hearth - That's because people go to Canada to get high.

    – Hot Licks
    4 hours ago













    @stannius Yes, and in the UK, which is where London is, that's exactly what it will mean.

    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    1 hour ago







    @stannius Yes, and in the UK, which is where London is, that's exactly what it will mean.

    – Lightness Races in Orbit
    1 hour ago















    @LightnessRacesinOrbit: I might be missing something in your comment, but you're aware that London is in the south east of England (and hence of the UK)?

    – Steve Melnikoff
    12 mins ago





    @LightnessRacesinOrbit: I might be missing something in your comment, but you're aware that London is in the south east of England (and hence of the UK)?

    – Steve Melnikoff
    12 mins ago













    0














    I (born 1964) was brought up south of London so I have personal experience of this problem. We always went up to London. As there was no obvious altitude difference, I always assumed it meant "up north" but my dad (born 1916) assured me that London was always up. He was brought up north-west of London. He further told me that it was a rigid convention on the railways (and we would always have travelled by train) that the up train went to London and the down train came back.



    The Free Dictionary supports this claim that there are two different definitions in use, and this document from the the Indian Railway Fan Club (see section on "Up and Down Trains") says




    Down refers to a train travelling away from its headquarters (i.e., the homing railway) or from its Divisional headquarters, whichever is closer. Up refers to a train travelling towards its headquarters or divisional HQ, whichever is closer. [...]

    History

    In the UK, the convention was that all trains going to London were "up", and all those going away from it were "down".




    I am pretty certain (from experience) that my dad was right, but equally certain that it is not common practice these days. It may well depend on direction - you might be more likely to go up to London if it were east than if it were south. I would definitely go down to London these days from where I am now in Scotland.



    In short, I am sure up is definitely the direction of London, but we cannot be sure, without further context (i.e. date and location) if it meant "up north(ish)" or "towards the metropolis".



    In this example, the implication is clearly that prices will be higher in London than where they are now.






    share|improve this answer




























      0














      I (born 1964) was brought up south of London so I have personal experience of this problem. We always went up to London. As there was no obvious altitude difference, I always assumed it meant "up north" but my dad (born 1916) assured me that London was always up. He was brought up north-west of London. He further told me that it was a rigid convention on the railways (and we would always have travelled by train) that the up train went to London and the down train came back.



      The Free Dictionary supports this claim that there are two different definitions in use, and this document from the the Indian Railway Fan Club (see section on "Up and Down Trains") says




      Down refers to a train travelling away from its headquarters (i.e., the homing railway) or from its Divisional headquarters, whichever is closer. Up refers to a train travelling towards its headquarters or divisional HQ, whichever is closer. [...]

      History

      In the UK, the convention was that all trains going to London were "up", and all those going away from it were "down".




      I am pretty certain (from experience) that my dad was right, but equally certain that it is not common practice these days. It may well depend on direction - you might be more likely to go up to London if it were east than if it were south. I would definitely go down to London these days from where I am now in Scotland.



      In short, I am sure up is definitely the direction of London, but we cannot be sure, without further context (i.e. date and location) if it meant "up north(ish)" or "towards the metropolis".



      In this example, the implication is clearly that prices will be higher in London than where they are now.






      share|improve this answer


























        0












        0








        0







        I (born 1964) was brought up south of London so I have personal experience of this problem. We always went up to London. As there was no obvious altitude difference, I always assumed it meant "up north" but my dad (born 1916) assured me that London was always up. He was brought up north-west of London. He further told me that it was a rigid convention on the railways (and we would always have travelled by train) that the up train went to London and the down train came back.



        The Free Dictionary supports this claim that there are two different definitions in use, and this document from the the Indian Railway Fan Club (see section on "Up and Down Trains") says




        Down refers to a train travelling away from its headquarters (i.e., the homing railway) or from its Divisional headquarters, whichever is closer. Up refers to a train travelling towards its headquarters or divisional HQ, whichever is closer. [...]

        History

        In the UK, the convention was that all trains going to London were "up", and all those going away from it were "down".




        I am pretty certain (from experience) that my dad was right, but equally certain that it is not common practice these days. It may well depend on direction - you might be more likely to go up to London if it were east than if it were south. I would definitely go down to London these days from where I am now in Scotland.



        In short, I am sure up is definitely the direction of London, but we cannot be sure, without further context (i.e. date and location) if it meant "up north(ish)" or "towards the metropolis".



        In this example, the implication is clearly that prices will be higher in London than where they are now.






        share|improve this answer













        I (born 1964) was brought up south of London so I have personal experience of this problem. We always went up to London. As there was no obvious altitude difference, I always assumed it meant "up north" but my dad (born 1916) assured me that London was always up. He was brought up north-west of London. He further told me that it was a rigid convention on the railways (and we would always have travelled by train) that the up train went to London and the down train came back.



        The Free Dictionary supports this claim that there are two different definitions in use, and this document from the the Indian Railway Fan Club (see section on "Up and Down Trains") says




        Down refers to a train travelling away from its headquarters (i.e., the homing railway) or from its Divisional headquarters, whichever is closer. Up refers to a train travelling towards its headquarters or divisional HQ, whichever is closer. [...]

        History

        In the UK, the convention was that all trains going to London were "up", and all those going away from it were "down".




        I am pretty certain (from experience) that my dad was right, but equally certain that it is not common practice these days. It may well depend on direction - you might be more likely to go up to London if it were east than if it were south. I would definitely go down to London these days from where I am now in Scotland.



        In short, I am sure up is definitely the direction of London, but we cannot be sure, without further context (i.e. date and location) if it meant "up north(ish)" or "towards the metropolis".



        In this example, the implication is clearly that prices will be higher in London than where they are now.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 12 mins ago









        David RobinsonDavid Robinson

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