What did Frank Herbert mean when he said “humans do not have equal ability”, concerning equality?
In the "Dune Genesis" essay originally published in the July 1980 issue of Omni Magazine* Frank Herbert wrote:
"I now believe that evolution, or deevolution[sic], never ends short
of death, that no society has ever achieved an absolute pinnacle, that
all humans are not created equal. In fact, I believe attempts to
create some abstract equalization create a morass of injustices that
rebound on the equalizers. Equal justice and equal opportunity are
ideals we should seek, but we should recognize that humans administer
the ideals and that humans do not have equal ability."
- Did he try to say that humans have not the ability to administer successfully these ideals?
- Was he trying to say that humans doing it have not equal ideals?
- Simply saying that some humans have not the ability to administer the ideals while others have it?
- Or, the worst meaning to me, "some humans don't deserve equality because their lack of ability"?
PS: I think people need to know Herbert's science fiction work to know his way of thinking, however you can't ask about the writers in Science Fiction SE.
(*) Herbert, Frank (July 1980). "Dune Genesis". Omni 2 (2): p. 72. ISSN 0149-8711.
form-of-government society inequality transhumanism social-justice
New contributor
|
show 10 more comments
In the "Dune Genesis" essay originally published in the July 1980 issue of Omni Magazine* Frank Herbert wrote:
"I now believe that evolution, or deevolution[sic], never ends short
of death, that no society has ever achieved an absolute pinnacle, that
all humans are not created equal. In fact, I believe attempts to
create some abstract equalization create a morass of injustices that
rebound on the equalizers. Equal justice and equal opportunity are
ideals we should seek, but we should recognize that humans administer
the ideals and that humans do not have equal ability."
- Did he try to say that humans have not the ability to administer successfully these ideals?
- Was he trying to say that humans doing it have not equal ideals?
- Simply saying that some humans have not the ability to administer the ideals while others have it?
- Or, the worst meaning to me, "some humans don't deserve equality because their lack of ability"?
PS: I think people need to know Herbert's science fiction work to know his way of thinking, however you can't ask about the writers in Science Fiction SE.
(*) Herbert, Frank (July 1980). "Dune Genesis". Omni 2 (2): p. 72. ISSN 0149-8711.
form-of-government society inequality transhumanism social-justice
New contributor
13
I would think reading the full sentence where he states that "Equal justice and equal opportunity are ideals that we should seek" rule out the last bullet point. Personally I would guess that it is simple as not everyone can do something at the same level. For example look at sports and how not everyone can make it to a professional/Olympic level regardless of the amount of training that they do.
– Joe W
18 hours ago
3
I personally read it as we should strive to treat everyone as equal and give everyone an equal chance even though everyone does not have an equal ability to succeed.
– Joe W
18 hours ago
5
@Joe W: Yes. If I were to try to make a living as say a pro football player or rock musician (among many other possibilities), I would almost certainly starve. OTOH, I doubt many football players or rock musicians could write a decent computer program. (Note that I said MANY, and don't bring up that Queen guitarist who moonlights as a astrophysicist :-))
– jamesqf
17 hours ago
2
I agree with JoeW. The author is referring to the fact that people simply are born with different abilities to do stuff - people are born with different muscle mass, stamina, metabolism, height, vocal cords, not to mention mental matters. It all results in different abilities (some are born to become basketball players, others are certainly not). I believe he is referring to the idea of every individual's "Equal justice and equal opportunity", but not necessarily equal outcomes, as an ideal
– Steeven
16 hours ago
2
I'm not sure its official policy to not ask about SF author's views on SFF.
– Mark Rogers
9 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
In the "Dune Genesis" essay originally published in the July 1980 issue of Omni Magazine* Frank Herbert wrote:
"I now believe that evolution, or deevolution[sic], never ends short
of death, that no society has ever achieved an absolute pinnacle, that
all humans are not created equal. In fact, I believe attempts to
create some abstract equalization create a morass of injustices that
rebound on the equalizers. Equal justice and equal opportunity are
ideals we should seek, but we should recognize that humans administer
the ideals and that humans do not have equal ability."
- Did he try to say that humans have not the ability to administer successfully these ideals?
- Was he trying to say that humans doing it have not equal ideals?
- Simply saying that some humans have not the ability to administer the ideals while others have it?
- Or, the worst meaning to me, "some humans don't deserve equality because their lack of ability"?
PS: I think people need to know Herbert's science fiction work to know his way of thinking, however you can't ask about the writers in Science Fiction SE.
(*) Herbert, Frank (July 1980). "Dune Genesis". Omni 2 (2): p. 72. ISSN 0149-8711.
form-of-government society inequality transhumanism social-justice
New contributor
In the "Dune Genesis" essay originally published in the July 1980 issue of Omni Magazine* Frank Herbert wrote:
"I now believe that evolution, or deevolution[sic], never ends short
of death, that no society has ever achieved an absolute pinnacle, that
all humans are not created equal. In fact, I believe attempts to
create some abstract equalization create a morass of injustices that
rebound on the equalizers. Equal justice and equal opportunity are
ideals we should seek, but we should recognize that humans administer
the ideals and that humans do not have equal ability."
- Did he try to say that humans have not the ability to administer successfully these ideals?
- Was he trying to say that humans doing it have not equal ideals?
- Simply saying that some humans have not the ability to administer the ideals while others have it?
- Or, the worst meaning to me, "some humans don't deserve equality because their lack of ability"?
PS: I think people need to know Herbert's science fiction work to know his way of thinking, however you can't ask about the writers in Science Fiction SE.
(*) Herbert, Frank (July 1980). "Dune Genesis". Omni 2 (2): p. 72. ISSN 0149-8711.
form-of-government society inequality transhumanism social-justice
form-of-government society inequality transhumanism social-justice
New contributor
New contributor
New contributor
asked 18 hours ago
Leopoldo SanczykLeopoldo Sanczyk
1516
1516
New contributor
New contributor
13
I would think reading the full sentence where he states that "Equal justice and equal opportunity are ideals that we should seek" rule out the last bullet point. Personally I would guess that it is simple as not everyone can do something at the same level. For example look at sports and how not everyone can make it to a professional/Olympic level regardless of the amount of training that they do.
– Joe W
18 hours ago
3
I personally read it as we should strive to treat everyone as equal and give everyone an equal chance even though everyone does not have an equal ability to succeed.
– Joe W
18 hours ago
5
@Joe W: Yes. If I were to try to make a living as say a pro football player or rock musician (among many other possibilities), I would almost certainly starve. OTOH, I doubt many football players or rock musicians could write a decent computer program. (Note that I said MANY, and don't bring up that Queen guitarist who moonlights as a astrophysicist :-))
– jamesqf
17 hours ago
2
I agree with JoeW. The author is referring to the fact that people simply are born with different abilities to do stuff - people are born with different muscle mass, stamina, metabolism, height, vocal cords, not to mention mental matters. It all results in different abilities (some are born to become basketball players, others are certainly not). I believe he is referring to the idea of every individual's "Equal justice and equal opportunity", but not necessarily equal outcomes, as an ideal
– Steeven
16 hours ago
2
I'm not sure its official policy to not ask about SF author's views on SFF.
– Mark Rogers
9 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
13
I would think reading the full sentence where he states that "Equal justice and equal opportunity are ideals that we should seek" rule out the last bullet point. Personally I would guess that it is simple as not everyone can do something at the same level. For example look at sports and how not everyone can make it to a professional/Olympic level regardless of the amount of training that they do.
– Joe W
18 hours ago
3
I personally read it as we should strive to treat everyone as equal and give everyone an equal chance even though everyone does not have an equal ability to succeed.
– Joe W
18 hours ago
5
@Joe W: Yes. If I were to try to make a living as say a pro football player or rock musician (among many other possibilities), I would almost certainly starve. OTOH, I doubt many football players or rock musicians could write a decent computer program. (Note that I said MANY, and don't bring up that Queen guitarist who moonlights as a astrophysicist :-))
– jamesqf
17 hours ago
2
I agree with JoeW. The author is referring to the fact that people simply are born with different abilities to do stuff - people are born with different muscle mass, stamina, metabolism, height, vocal cords, not to mention mental matters. It all results in different abilities (some are born to become basketball players, others are certainly not). I believe he is referring to the idea of every individual's "Equal justice and equal opportunity", but not necessarily equal outcomes, as an ideal
– Steeven
16 hours ago
2
I'm not sure its official policy to not ask about SF author's views on SFF.
– Mark Rogers
9 hours ago
13
13
I would think reading the full sentence where he states that "Equal justice and equal opportunity are ideals that we should seek" rule out the last bullet point. Personally I would guess that it is simple as not everyone can do something at the same level. For example look at sports and how not everyone can make it to a professional/Olympic level regardless of the amount of training that they do.
– Joe W
18 hours ago
I would think reading the full sentence where he states that "Equal justice and equal opportunity are ideals that we should seek" rule out the last bullet point. Personally I would guess that it is simple as not everyone can do something at the same level. For example look at sports and how not everyone can make it to a professional/Olympic level regardless of the amount of training that they do.
– Joe W
18 hours ago
3
3
I personally read it as we should strive to treat everyone as equal and give everyone an equal chance even though everyone does not have an equal ability to succeed.
– Joe W
18 hours ago
I personally read it as we should strive to treat everyone as equal and give everyone an equal chance even though everyone does not have an equal ability to succeed.
– Joe W
18 hours ago
5
5
@Joe W: Yes. If I were to try to make a living as say a pro football player or rock musician (among many other possibilities), I would almost certainly starve. OTOH, I doubt many football players or rock musicians could write a decent computer program. (Note that I said MANY, and don't bring up that Queen guitarist who moonlights as a astrophysicist :-))
– jamesqf
17 hours ago
@Joe W: Yes. If I were to try to make a living as say a pro football player or rock musician (among many other possibilities), I would almost certainly starve. OTOH, I doubt many football players or rock musicians could write a decent computer program. (Note that I said MANY, and don't bring up that Queen guitarist who moonlights as a astrophysicist :-))
– jamesqf
17 hours ago
2
2
I agree with JoeW. The author is referring to the fact that people simply are born with different abilities to do stuff - people are born with different muscle mass, stamina, metabolism, height, vocal cords, not to mention mental matters. It all results in different abilities (some are born to become basketball players, others are certainly not). I believe he is referring to the idea of every individual's "Equal justice and equal opportunity", but not necessarily equal outcomes, as an ideal
– Steeven
16 hours ago
I agree with JoeW. The author is referring to the fact that people simply are born with different abilities to do stuff - people are born with different muscle mass, stamina, metabolism, height, vocal cords, not to mention mental matters. It all results in different abilities (some are born to become basketball players, others are certainly not). I believe he is referring to the idea of every individual's "Equal justice and equal opportunity", but not necessarily equal outcomes, as an ideal
– Steeven
16 hours ago
2
2
I'm not sure its official policy to not ask about SF author's views on SFF.
– Mark Rogers
9 hours ago
I'm not sure its official policy to not ask about SF author's views on SFF.
– Mark Rogers
9 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
I think that Frank Herbert's points were these:
Everyone is different, with different varying abilities. You might
be good at math, I might not be. I might learn by doing, you might
learn by reading.When people try to force people to meet a one size fits all standard
so that everyone will be equal, it ends up creating
injustices. Example: I'm not good at math, so I have a lower
standard to get an accounting job, but you get a penalty applying for
the same job because you're good at math, to make you equal with me.People should strive for equal opportunity and equal justice. Let
us both do the best we can do to be as good at math as we can be,
and let the whichever one of us who can do math the best get the
accounting job. If both of us commit the same crime under the same
circumstances, let us both be punished the same way, without respect
to social class or other qualities that have nothing to do with the
crime committed.Flawed human beings implement efforts toward ideals, so things
aren't going to be perfect, and we should try the best we can to
implement the ideals of equal opportunity and equal justice as
fairly as we can even though we're limited imperfect human beings.Human beings don't have equal ability, so don't try to force things
to turn out a certain way. Don't force someone who would rather be
outside working in the forestry service to work in a so-called
'better' job because his group is 'underrepresented'. If I'm not
good at math, don't pressure me to be a physicist which I may find
to be a frustrating job that I'm not very good at. Let me do what I
want to do and what I'm good at.
New contributor
1
Thanks for the insights @TheLeopard! So, you see Herbert just worrying about some kind of forced standarization, or equality without freedom?
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
11 hours ago
3
Being miserable and treating other people like dirt is every New Yorker's God-given right.
– Mazura
11 hours ago
Sorry @Mazura could you explain it a bit further? I did not understand it.
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
10 hours ago
5
Yes. That was a political issue of his time, and it's still somewhat of an issue now. He's advocating for equality of opportunity, allowing people to be free to do their best and get the results they achieve, instead of forcing people into a system that tries to guarantee equal results for everyone. He's saying that imperfect people can't make a system like that without hurting people and inflicting brutal injustices, and even then it won't work.
– TheLeopard
10 hours ago
2
@TheLeopard indeed, equality of opportunity over the current fad which is equality of outcome which never produces anything but mediocrity.
– jwenting
5 hours ago
add a comment |
It's not an interesting quote politically or otherwise, because it's obvious.
SF writers of Herbert's generation were prone to issuing frank and chronic updates of their educational misadventures. Herbert meant that his earlier too literal reading of a certain Jeffersonian premise eventually led him to a somewhat less over-literal interpretation.
(Herbert's latter interpretation is still too literal by half**...)
Did he try to say that humans have not the ability to administer successfully these ideals?
Humans in general possess an administrative ability, but not everyone in the general populace has equal nor sufficient ability to administrate well.
Was he trying to say that humans doing it have not equal ideals?
The quote doesn't go into that. But in Herbert's fiction, ability and benign ideals don't always coincide: the villainous Vlad Harkonnen was a man of great ability but base ideals. But Herbert's novels also attempt to show that having a "good guy" running things isn't enough either -- uncritical public hero-worship of ability and benign ideals can also lead to stagnation and misery.
Simply saying that some humans have not the ability to administer the ideals while others have it?
Yes, but also that it wasn't necessary or desirable or even possible to have "perfect" administration... or "perfect" ideals. A bad administrator pretends to be perfect, and failing that, abuses his power to hide any mistakes. A good administrator admits and shares mistakes so that others may themselves profit by avoiding that bad example, and perhaps provide counsel. Beyond the errors of administrators are the flaws in human ideals, which can become destructive when fanatically denied, or enlightening when pondered and studied.
Or, the worst meaning to me, "some humans don't deserve equality because their lack of ability"?
No. Herbert was just saying that not everyone should administrate.
**For a better and earlier exposition of human metrics, see Burn's Is There for Honest Poverty.
thanks for the links! So those 2 things "we should recognize" are related. He is saying humans will not administer the ideals perfectly, and even not close to that if the lack enough ability.
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
15 hours ago
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
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oldest
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I think that Frank Herbert's points were these:
Everyone is different, with different varying abilities. You might
be good at math, I might not be. I might learn by doing, you might
learn by reading.When people try to force people to meet a one size fits all standard
so that everyone will be equal, it ends up creating
injustices. Example: I'm not good at math, so I have a lower
standard to get an accounting job, but you get a penalty applying for
the same job because you're good at math, to make you equal with me.People should strive for equal opportunity and equal justice. Let
us both do the best we can do to be as good at math as we can be,
and let the whichever one of us who can do math the best get the
accounting job. If both of us commit the same crime under the same
circumstances, let us both be punished the same way, without respect
to social class or other qualities that have nothing to do with the
crime committed.Flawed human beings implement efforts toward ideals, so things
aren't going to be perfect, and we should try the best we can to
implement the ideals of equal opportunity and equal justice as
fairly as we can even though we're limited imperfect human beings.Human beings don't have equal ability, so don't try to force things
to turn out a certain way. Don't force someone who would rather be
outside working in the forestry service to work in a so-called
'better' job because his group is 'underrepresented'. If I'm not
good at math, don't pressure me to be a physicist which I may find
to be a frustrating job that I'm not very good at. Let me do what I
want to do and what I'm good at.
New contributor
1
Thanks for the insights @TheLeopard! So, you see Herbert just worrying about some kind of forced standarization, or equality without freedom?
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
11 hours ago
3
Being miserable and treating other people like dirt is every New Yorker's God-given right.
– Mazura
11 hours ago
Sorry @Mazura could you explain it a bit further? I did not understand it.
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
10 hours ago
5
Yes. That was a political issue of his time, and it's still somewhat of an issue now. He's advocating for equality of opportunity, allowing people to be free to do their best and get the results they achieve, instead of forcing people into a system that tries to guarantee equal results for everyone. He's saying that imperfect people can't make a system like that without hurting people and inflicting brutal injustices, and even then it won't work.
– TheLeopard
10 hours ago
2
@TheLeopard indeed, equality of opportunity over the current fad which is equality of outcome which never produces anything but mediocrity.
– jwenting
5 hours ago
add a comment |
I think that Frank Herbert's points were these:
Everyone is different, with different varying abilities. You might
be good at math, I might not be. I might learn by doing, you might
learn by reading.When people try to force people to meet a one size fits all standard
so that everyone will be equal, it ends up creating
injustices. Example: I'm not good at math, so I have a lower
standard to get an accounting job, but you get a penalty applying for
the same job because you're good at math, to make you equal with me.People should strive for equal opportunity and equal justice. Let
us both do the best we can do to be as good at math as we can be,
and let the whichever one of us who can do math the best get the
accounting job. If both of us commit the same crime under the same
circumstances, let us both be punished the same way, without respect
to social class or other qualities that have nothing to do with the
crime committed.Flawed human beings implement efforts toward ideals, so things
aren't going to be perfect, and we should try the best we can to
implement the ideals of equal opportunity and equal justice as
fairly as we can even though we're limited imperfect human beings.Human beings don't have equal ability, so don't try to force things
to turn out a certain way. Don't force someone who would rather be
outside working in the forestry service to work in a so-called
'better' job because his group is 'underrepresented'. If I'm not
good at math, don't pressure me to be a physicist which I may find
to be a frustrating job that I'm not very good at. Let me do what I
want to do and what I'm good at.
New contributor
1
Thanks for the insights @TheLeopard! So, you see Herbert just worrying about some kind of forced standarization, or equality without freedom?
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
11 hours ago
3
Being miserable and treating other people like dirt is every New Yorker's God-given right.
– Mazura
11 hours ago
Sorry @Mazura could you explain it a bit further? I did not understand it.
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
10 hours ago
5
Yes. That was a political issue of his time, and it's still somewhat of an issue now. He's advocating for equality of opportunity, allowing people to be free to do their best and get the results they achieve, instead of forcing people into a system that tries to guarantee equal results for everyone. He's saying that imperfect people can't make a system like that without hurting people and inflicting brutal injustices, and even then it won't work.
– TheLeopard
10 hours ago
2
@TheLeopard indeed, equality of opportunity over the current fad which is equality of outcome which never produces anything but mediocrity.
– jwenting
5 hours ago
add a comment |
I think that Frank Herbert's points were these:
Everyone is different, with different varying abilities. You might
be good at math, I might not be. I might learn by doing, you might
learn by reading.When people try to force people to meet a one size fits all standard
so that everyone will be equal, it ends up creating
injustices. Example: I'm not good at math, so I have a lower
standard to get an accounting job, but you get a penalty applying for
the same job because you're good at math, to make you equal with me.People should strive for equal opportunity and equal justice. Let
us both do the best we can do to be as good at math as we can be,
and let the whichever one of us who can do math the best get the
accounting job. If both of us commit the same crime under the same
circumstances, let us both be punished the same way, without respect
to social class or other qualities that have nothing to do with the
crime committed.Flawed human beings implement efforts toward ideals, so things
aren't going to be perfect, and we should try the best we can to
implement the ideals of equal opportunity and equal justice as
fairly as we can even though we're limited imperfect human beings.Human beings don't have equal ability, so don't try to force things
to turn out a certain way. Don't force someone who would rather be
outside working in the forestry service to work in a so-called
'better' job because his group is 'underrepresented'. If I'm not
good at math, don't pressure me to be a physicist which I may find
to be a frustrating job that I'm not very good at. Let me do what I
want to do and what I'm good at.
New contributor
I think that Frank Herbert's points were these:
Everyone is different, with different varying abilities. You might
be good at math, I might not be. I might learn by doing, you might
learn by reading.When people try to force people to meet a one size fits all standard
so that everyone will be equal, it ends up creating
injustices. Example: I'm not good at math, so I have a lower
standard to get an accounting job, but you get a penalty applying for
the same job because you're good at math, to make you equal with me.People should strive for equal opportunity and equal justice. Let
us both do the best we can do to be as good at math as we can be,
and let the whichever one of us who can do math the best get the
accounting job. If both of us commit the same crime under the same
circumstances, let us both be punished the same way, without respect
to social class or other qualities that have nothing to do with the
crime committed.Flawed human beings implement efforts toward ideals, so things
aren't going to be perfect, and we should try the best we can to
implement the ideals of equal opportunity and equal justice as
fairly as we can even though we're limited imperfect human beings.Human beings don't have equal ability, so don't try to force things
to turn out a certain way. Don't force someone who would rather be
outside working in the forestry service to work in a so-called
'better' job because his group is 'underrepresented'. If I'm not
good at math, don't pressure me to be a physicist which I may find
to be a frustrating job that I'm not very good at. Let me do what I
want to do and what I'm good at.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 15 hours ago
TheLeopardTheLeopard
3396
3396
New contributor
New contributor
1
Thanks for the insights @TheLeopard! So, you see Herbert just worrying about some kind of forced standarization, or equality without freedom?
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
11 hours ago
3
Being miserable and treating other people like dirt is every New Yorker's God-given right.
– Mazura
11 hours ago
Sorry @Mazura could you explain it a bit further? I did not understand it.
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
10 hours ago
5
Yes. That was a political issue of his time, and it's still somewhat of an issue now. He's advocating for equality of opportunity, allowing people to be free to do their best and get the results they achieve, instead of forcing people into a system that tries to guarantee equal results for everyone. He's saying that imperfect people can't make a system like that without hurting people and inflicting brutal injustices, and even then it won't work.
– TheLeopard
10 hours ago
2
@TheLeopard indeed, equality of opportunity over the current fad which is equality of outcome which never produces anything but mediocrity.
– jwenting
5 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Thanks for the insights @TheLeopard! So, you see Herbert just worrying about some kind of forced standarization, or equality without freedom?
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
11 hours ago
3
Being miserable and treating other people like dirt is every New Yorker's God-given right.
– Mazura
11 hours ago
Sorry @Mazura could you explain it a bit further? I did not understand it.
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
10 hours ago
5
Yes. That was a political issue of his time, and it's still somewhat of an issue now. He's advocating for equality of opportunity, allowing people to be free to do their best and get the results they achieve, instead of forcing people into a system that tries to guarantee equal results for everyone. He's saying that imperfect people can't make a system like that without hurting people and inflicting brutal injustices, and even then it won't work.
– TheLeopard
10 hours ago
2
@TheLeopard indeed, equality of opportunity over the current fad which is equality of outcome which never produces anything but mediocrity.
– jwenting
5 hours ago
1
1
Thanks for the insights @TheLeopard! So, you see Herbert just worrying about some kind of forced standarization, or equality without freedom?
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
11 hours ago
Thanks for the insights @TheLeopard! So, you see Herbert just worrying about some kind of forced standarization, or equality without freedom?
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
11 hours ago
3
3
Being miserable and treating other people like dirt is every New Yorker's God-given right.
– Mazura
11 hours ago
Being miserable and treating other people like dirt is every New Yorker's God-given right.
– Mazura
11 hours ago
Sorry @Mazura could you explain it a bit further? I did not understand it.
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
10 hours ago
Sorry @Mazura could you explain it a bit further? I did not understand it.
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
10 hours ago
5
5
Yes. That was a political issue of his time, and it's still somewhat of an issue now. He's advocating for equality of opportunity, allowing people to be free to do their best and get the results they achieve, instead of forcing people into a system that tries to guarantee equal results for everyone. He's saying that imperfect people can't make a system like that without hurting people and inflicting brutal injustices, and even then it won't work.
– TheLeopard
10 hours ago
Yes. That was a political issue of his time, and it's still somewhat of an issue now. He's advocating for equality of opportunity, allowing people to be free to do their best and get the results they achieve, instead of forcing people into a system that tries to guarantee equal results for everyone. He's saying that imperfect people can't make a system like that without hurting people and inflicting brutal injustices, and even then it won't work.
– TheLeopard
10 hours ago
2
2
@TheLeopard indeed, equality of opportunity over the current fad which is equality of outcome which never produces anything but mediocrity.
– jwenting
5 hours ago
@TheLeopard indeed, equality of opportunity over the current fad which is equality of outcome which never produces anything but mediocrity.
– jwenting
5 hours ago
add a comment |
It's not an interesting quote politically or otherwise, because it's obvious.
SF writers of Herbert's generation were prone to issuing frank and chronic updates of their educational misadventures. Herbert meant that his earlier too literal reading of a certain Jeffersonian premise eventually led him to a somewhat less over-literal interpretation.
(Herbert's latter interpretation is still too literal by half**...)
Did he try to say that humans have not the ability to administer successfully these ideals?
Humans in general possess an administrative ability, but not everyone in the general populace has equal nor sufficient ability to administrate well.
Was he trying to say that humans doing it have not equal ideals?
The quote doesn't go into that. But in Herbert's fiction, ability and benign ideals don't always coincide: the villainous Vlad Harkonnen was a man of great ability but base ideals. But Herbert's novels also attempt to show that having a "good guy" running things isn't enough either -- uncritical public hero-worship of ability and benign ideals can also lead to stagnation and misery.
Simply saying that some humans have not the ability to administer the ideals while others have it?
Yes, but also that it wasn't necessary or desirable or even possible to have "perfect" administration... or "perfect" ideals. A bad administrator pretends to be perfect, and failing that, abuses his power to hide any mistakes. A good administrator admits and shares mistakes so that others may themselves profit by avoiding that bad example, and perhaps provide counsel. Beyond the errors of administrators are the flaws in human ideals, which can become destructive when fanatically denied, or enlightening when pondered and studied.
Or, the worst meaning to me, "some humans don't deserve equality because their lack of ability"?
No. Herbert was just saying that not everyone should administrate.
**For a better and earlier exposition of human metrics, see Burn's Is There for Honest Poverty.
thanks for the links! So those 2 things "we should recognize" are related. He is saying humans will not administer the ideals perfectly, and even not close to that if the lack enough ability.
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
15 hours ago
add a comment |
It's not an interesting quote politically or otherwise, because it's obvious.
SF writers of Herbert's generation were prone to issuing frank and chronic updates of their educational misadventures. Herbert meant that his earlier too literal reading of a certain Jeffersonian premise eventually led him to a somewhat less over-literal interpretation.
(Herbert's latter interpretation is still too literal by half**...)
Did he try to say that humans have not the ability to administer successfully these ideals?
Humans in general possess an administrative ability, but not everyone in the general populace has equal nor sufficient ability to administrate well.
Was he trying to say that humans doing it have not equal ideals?
The quote doesn't go into that. But in Herbert's fiction, ability and benign ideals don't always coincide: the villainous Vlad Harkonnen was a man of great ability but base ideals. But Herbert's novels also attempt to show that having a "good guy" running things isn't enough either -- uncritical public hero-worship of ability and benign ideals can also lead to stagnation and misery.
Simply saying that some humans have not the ability to administer the ideals while others have it?
Yes, but also that it wasn't necessary or desirable or even possible to have "perfect" administration... or "perfect" ideals. A bad administrator pretends to be perfect, and failing that, abuses his power to hide any mistakes. A good administrator admits and shares mistakes so that others may themselves profit by avoiding that bad example, and perhaps provide counsel. Beyond the errors of administrators are the flaws in human ideals, which can become destructive when fanatically denied, or enlightening when pondered and studied.
Or, the worst meaning to me, "some humans don't deserve equality because their lack of ability"?
No. Herbert was just saying that not everyone should administrate.
**For a better and earlier exposition of human metrics, see Burn's Is There for Honest Poverty.
thanks for the links! So those 2 things "we should recognize" are related. He is saying humans will not administer the ideals perfectly, and even not close to that if the lack enough ability.
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
15 hours ago
add a comment |
It's not an interesting quote politically or otherwise, because it's obvious.
SF writers of Herbert's generation were prone to issuing frank and chronic updates of their educational misadventures. Herbert meant that his earlier too literal reading of a certain Jeffersonian premise eventually led him to a somewhat less over-literal interpretation.
(Herbert's latter interpretation is still too literal by half**...)
Did he try to say that humans have not the ability to administer successfully these ideals?
Humans in general possess an administrative ability, but not everyone in the general populace has equal nor sufficient ability to administrate well.
Was he trying to say that humans doing it have not equal ideals?
The quote doesn't go into that. But in Herbert's fiction, ability and benign ideals don't always coincide: the villainous Vlad Harkonnen was a man of great ability but base ideals. But Herbert's novels also attempt to show that having a "good guy" running things isn't enough either -- uncritical public hero-worship of ability and benign ideals can also lead to stagnation and misery.
Simply saying that some humans have not the ability to administer the ideals while others have it?
Yes, but also that it wasn't necessary or desirable or even possible to have "perfect" administration... or "perfect" ideals. A bad administrator pretends to be perfect, and failing that, abuses his power to hide any mistakes. A good administrator admits and shares mistakes so that others may themselves profit by avoiding that bad example, and perhaps provide counsel. Beyond the errors of administrators are the flaws in human ideals, which can become destructive when fanatically denied, or enlightening when pondered and studied.
Or, the worst meaning to me, "some humans don't deserve equality because their lack of ability"?
No. Herbert was just saying that not everyone should administrate.
**For a better and earlier exposition of human metrics, see Burn's Is There for Honest Poverty.
It's not an interesting quote politically or otherwise, because it's obvious.
SF writers of Herbert's generation were prone to issuing frank and chronic updates of their educational misadventures. Herbert meant that his earlier too literal reading of a certain Jeffersonian premise eventually led him to a somewhat less over-literal interpretation.
(Herbert's latter interpretation is still too literal by half**...)
Did he try to say that humans have not the ability to administer successfully these ideals?
Humans in general possess an administrative ability, but not everyone in the general populace has equal nor sufficient ability to administrate well.
Was he trying to say that humans doing it have not equal ideals?
The quote doesn't go into that. But in Herbert's fiction, ability and benign ideals don't always coincide: the villainous Vlad Harkonnen was a man of great ability but base ideals. But Herbert's novels also attempt to show that having a "good guy" running things isn't enough either -- uncritical public hero-worship of ability and benign ideals can also lead to stagnation and misery.
Simply saying that some humans have not the ability to administer the ideals while others have it?
Yes, but also that it wasn't necessary or desirable or even possible to have "perfect" administration... or "perfect" ideals. A bad administrator pretends to be perfect, and failing that, abuses his power to hide any mistakes. A good administrator admits and shares mistakes so that others may themselves profit by avoiding that bad example, and perhaps provide counsel. Beyond the errors of administrators are the flaws in human ideals, which can become destructive when fanatically denied, or enlightening when pondered and studied.
Or, the worst meaning to me, "some humans don't deserve equality because their lack of ability"?
No. Herbert was just saying that not everyone should administrate.
**For a better and earlier exposition of human metrics, see Burn's Is There for Honest Poverty.
edited 7 hours ago
answered 16 hours ago
agcagc
5,3491551
5,3491551
thanks for the links! So those 2 things "we should recognize" are related. He is saying humans will not administer the ideals perfectly, and even not close to that if the lack enough ability.
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
15 hours ago
add a comment |
thanks for the links! So those 2 things "we should recognize" are related. He is saying humans will not administer the ideals perfectly, and even not close to that if the lack enough ability.
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
15 hours ago
thanks for the links! So those 2 things "we should recognize" are related. He is saying humans will not administer the ideals perfectly, and even not close to that if the lack enough ability.
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
15 hours ago
thanks for the links! So those 2 things "we should recognize" are related. He is saying humans will not administer the ideals perfectly, and even not close to that if the lack enough ability.
– Leopoldo Sanczyk
15 hours ago
add a comment |
Leopoldo Sanczyk is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Leopoldo Sanczyk is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Leopoldo Sanczyk is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Leopoldo Sanczyk is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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13
I would think reading the full sentence where he states that "Equal justice and equal opportunity are ideals that we should seek" rule out the last bullet point. Personally I would guess that it is simple as not everyone can do something at the same level. For example look at sports and how not everyone can make it to a professional/Olympic level regardless of the amount of training that they do.
– Joe W
18 hours ago
3
I personally read it as we should strive to treat everyone as equal and give everyone an equal chance even though everyone does not have an equal ability to succeed.
– Joe W
18 hours ago
5
@Joe W: Yes. If I were to try to make a living as say a pro football player or rock musician (among many other possibilities), I would almost certainly starve. OTOH, I doubt many football players or rock musicians could write a decent computer program. (Note that I said MANY, and don't bring up that Queen guitarist who moonlights as a astrophysicist :-))
– jamesqf
17 hours ago
2
I agree with JoeW. The author is referring to the fact that people simply are born with different abilities to do stuff - people are born with different muscle mass, stamina, metabolism, height, vocal cords, not to mention mental matters. It all results in different abilities (some are born to become basketball players, others are certainly not). I believe he is referring to the idea of every individual's "Equal justice and equal opportunity", but not necessarily equal outcomes, as an ideal
– Steeven
16 hours ago
2
I'm not sure its official policy to not ask about SF author's views on SFF.
– Mark Rogers
9 hours ago