What are the limitations to using the Shape Water cantrip for cheating and forgery?












1












$begingroup$


The shape water cantrip has the following description:




Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous or 1 hour (see below)



You choose an area of water that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube. You manipulate it in one of the following ways:




  • You instantaneously move or otherwise change the flow of the water as you direct, up to 5 feet in any direction. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage.

  • You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction. This change lasts for 1 hour.

  • You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.

  • You freeze the water, provided that there are no creatures in it. The water unfreezes in 1 hour.


If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action.




I have 3 scenarios I have cooked up as an Arcane Trickster rogue to use this cantrip for cheating and forgery (detailed below):




  1. Cheating at cards

  2. Cheating at dice

  3. Forgery




Cheating at cards



I have a deck of blank cards. Theoretically, I can paint the cards with water and "change the water's color". With this in place, given that the other players are holding there cards within the 5x5x5-foot box, I should be able to manipulate the state of the cards simply by recasting the spell (e.g. swap an ace and a two).



Would this setup be counted as one instance of "no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time", or once per card in the deck?



Cheating at dice



I have a set of blank ivory dice: a cubic frame with six sides. Using holes in place of painted dots would allow ice to show through. By coloring each hole as black or white, I could affect the number of pips shown on each side while all the water stays in continuous contact.



ice dice



Assuming I'm playing with two dice, and each constitutes one instance of "no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time", would this pass even the most stringent interpretations of the shape water spell?



Forgery



I have a blank legal document - or better yet, one that has been filled out with information totally irrelevant to my use case (different name, different legal context).



Can I use shape water to paint it and overwrite some or all of the document with the intention that it reverts back to its original wording once the 1-hour duration of the spell ends?



Do I have to remain in the 30-foot range for the shaped water to remain?





I know I have asked multiple questions here, but the underlying theme is the same:
What are the limitations for using shape water for cheating and forgery?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I don't think you'll convince anyone to play a game with wet cards.
    $endgroup$
    – Erik
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    even if its a light coat of colored frost just where the ink goes?
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Is there something about the PC that enables the PC to ignore the rules for line of sight and line of effect?
    $endgroup$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @HeyICanChan assuming I cast it when it was all in line of site ... cant I hold it even if part of it goes out of line of site?
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    You may be interested in this question and — to a different question — this answer. An illustration of your "dice" would also be extremely useful. (I'm having a hard time figuring out what's meant there!)
    $endgroup$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    1 hour ago
















1












$begingroup$


The shape water cantrip has the following description:




Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous or 1 hour (see below)



You choose an area of water that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube. You manipulate it in one of the following ways:




  • You instantaneously move or otherwise change the flow of the water as you direct, up to 5 feet in any direction. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage.

  • You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction. This change lasts for 1 hour.

  • You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.

  • You freeze the water, provided that there are no creatures in it. The water unfreezes in 1 hour.


If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action.




I have 3 scenarios I have cooked up as an Arcane Trickster rogue to use this cantrip for cheating and forgery (detailed below):




  1. Cheating at cards

  2. Cheating at dice

  3. Forgery




Cheating at cards



I have a deck of blank cards. Theoretically, I can paint the cards with water and "change the water's color". With this in place, given that the other players are holding there cards within the 5x5x5-foot box, I should be able to manipulate the state of the cards simply by recasting the spell (e.g. swap an ace and a two).



Would this setup be counted as one instance of "no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time", or once per card in the deck?



Cheating at dice



I have a set of blank ivory dice: a cubic frame with six sides. Using holes in place of painted dots would allow ice to show through. By coloring each hole as black or white, I could affect the number of pips shown on each side while all the water stays in continuous contact.



ice dice



Assuming I'm playing with two dice, and each constitutes one instance of "no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time", would this pass even the most stringent interpretations of the shape water spell?



Forgery



I have a blank legal document - or better yet, one that has been filled out with information totally irrelevant to my use case (different name, different legal context).



Can I use shape water to paint it and overwrite some or all of the document with the intention that it reverts back to its original wording once the 1-hour duration of the spell ends?



Do I have to remain in the 30-foot range for the shaped water to remain?





I know I have asked multiple questions here, but the underlying theme is the same:
What are the limitations for using shape water for cheating and forgery?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I don't think you'll convince anyone to play a game with wet cards.
    $endgroup$
    – Erik
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    even if its a light coat of colored frost just where the ink goes?
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Is there something about the PC that enables the PC to ignore the rules for line of sight and line of effect?
    $endgroup$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @HeyICanChan assuming I cast it when it was all in line of site ... cant I hold it even if part of it goes out of line of site?
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    You may be interested in this question and — to a different question — this answer. An illustration of your "dice" would also be extremely useful. (I'm having a hard time figuring out what's meant there!)
    $endgroup$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    1 hour ago














1












1








1





$begingroup$


The shape water cantrip has the following description:




Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous or 1 hour (see below)



You choose an area of water that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube. You manipulate it in one of the following ways:




  • You instantaneously move or otherwise change the flow of the water as you direct, up to 5 feet in any direction. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage.

  • You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction. This change lasts for 1 hour.

  • You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.

  • You freeze the water, provided that there are no creatures in it. The water unfreezes in 1 hour.


If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action.




I have 3 scenarios I have cooked up as an Arcane Trickster rogue to use this cantrip for cheating and forgery (detailed below):




  1. Cheating at cards

  2. Cheating at dice

  3. Forgery




Cheating at cards



I have a deck of blank cards. Theoretically, I can paint the cards with water and "change the water's color". With this in place, given that the other players are holding there cards within the 5x5x5-foot box, I should be able to manipulate the state of the cards simply by recasting the spell (e.g. swap an ace and a two).



Would this setup be counted as one instance of "no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time", or once per card in the deck?



Cheating at dice



I have a set of blank ivory dice: a cubic frame with six sides. Using holes in place of painted dots would allow ice to show through. By coloring each hole as black or white, I could affect the number of pips shown on each side while all the water stays in continuous contact.



ice dice



Assuming I'm playing with two dice, and each constitutes one instance of "no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time", would this pass even the most stringent interpretations of the shape water spell?



Forgery



I have a blank legal document - or better yet, one that has been filled out with information totally irrelevant to my use case (different name, different legal context).



Can I use shape water to paint it and overwrite some or all of the document with the intention that it reverts back to its original wording once the 1-hour duration of the spell ends?



Do I have to remain in the 30-foot range for the shaped water to remain?





I know I have asked multiple questions here, but the underlying theme is the same:
What are the limitations for using shape water for cheating and forgery?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




The shape water cantrip has the following description:




Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous or 1 hour (see below)



You choose an area of water that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube. You manipulate it in one of the following ways:




  • You instantaneously move or otherwise change the flow of the water as you direct, up to 5 feet in any direction. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage.

  • You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction. This change lasts for 1 hour.

  • You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.

  • You freeze the water, provided that there are no creatures in it. The water unfreezes in 1 hour.


If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action.




I have 3 scenarios I have cooked up as an Arcane Trickster rogue to use this cantrip for cheating and forgery (detailed below):




  1. Cheating at cards

  2. Cheating at dice

  3. Forgery




Cheating at cards



I have a deck of blank cards. Theoretically, I can paint the cards with water and "change the water's color". With this in place, given that the other players are holding there cards within the 5x5x5-foot box, I should be able to manipulate the state of the cards simply by recasting the spell (e.g. swap an ace and a two).



Would this setup be counted as one instance of "no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time", or once per card in the deck?



Cheating at dice



I have a set of blank ivory dice: a cubic frame with six sides. Using holes in place of painted dots would allow ice to show through. By coloring each hole as black or white, I could affect the number of pips shown on each side while all the water stays in continuous contact.



ice dice



Assuming I'm playing with two dice, and each constitutes one instance of "no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time", would this pass even the most stringent interpretations of the shape water spell?



Forgery



I have a blank legal document - or better yet, one that has been filled out with information totally irrelevant to my use case (different name, different legal context).



Can I use shape water to paint it and overwrite some or all of the document with the intention that it reverts back to its original wording once the 1-hour duration of the spell ends?



Do I have to remain in the 30-foot range for the shaped water to remain?





I know I have asked multiple questions here, but the underlying theme is the same:
What are the limitations for using shape water for cheating and forgery?







dnd-5e spells cantrips






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 4 mins ago









V2Blast

20.5k358130




20.5k358130










asked 1 hour ago









CaffeineAddictionCaffeineAddiction

24417




24417








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I don't think you'll convince anyone to play a game with wet cards.
    $endgroup$
    – Erik
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    even if its a light coat of colored frost just where the ink goes?
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Is there something about the PC that enables the PC to ignore the rules for line of sight and line of effect?
    $endgroup$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @HeyICanChan assuming I cast it when it was all in line of site ... cant I hold it even if part of it goes out of line of site?
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    You may be interested in this question and — to a different question — this answer. An illustration of your "dice" would also be extremely useful. (I'm having a hard time figuring out what's meant there!)
    $endgroup$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    1 hour ago














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I don't think you'll convince anyone to play a game with wet cards.
    $endgroup$
    – Erik
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    even if its a light coat of colored frost just where the ink goes?
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    Is there something about the PC that enables the PC to ignore the rules for line of sight and line of effect?
    $endgroup$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @HeyICanChan assuming I cast it when it was all in line of site ... cant I hold it even if part of it goes out of line of site?
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    You may be interested in this question and — to a different question — this answer. An illustration of your "dice" would also be extremely useful. (I'm having a hard time figuring out what's meant there!)
    $endgroup$
    – Hey I Can Chan
    1 hour ago








1




1




$begingroup$
I don't think you'll convince anyone to play a game with wet cards.
$endgroup$
– Erik
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
I don't think you'll convince anyone to play a game with wet cards.
$endgroup$
– Erik
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
even if its a light coat of colored frost just where the ink goes?
$endgroup$
– CaffeineAddiction
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
even if its a light coat of colored frost just where the ink goes?
$endgroup$
– CaffeineAddiction
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
Is there something about the PC that enables the PC to ignore the rules for line of sight and line of effect?
$endgroup$
– Hey I Can Chan
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
Is there something about the PC that enables the PC to ignore the rules for line of sight and line of effect?
$endgroup$
– Hey I Can Chan
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
@HeyICanChan assuming I cast it when it was all in line of site ... cant I hold it even if part of it goes out of line of site?
$endgroup$
– CaffeineAddiction
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
@HeyICanChan assuming I cast it when it was all in line of site ... cant I hold it even if part of it goes out of line of site?
$endgroup$
– CaffeineAddiction
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
You may be interested in this question and — to a different question — this answer. An illustration of your "dice" would also be extremely useful. (I'm having a hard time figuring out what's meant there!)
$endgroup$
– Hey I Can Chan
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
You may be interested in this question and — to a different question — this answer. An illustration of your "dice" would also be extremely useful. (I'm having a hard time figuring out what's meant there!)
$endgroup$
– Hey I Can Chan
1 hour ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















7












$begingroup$

One Line of This Spell Makes These Ideas Difficult



There is an essential phrase you (originally) left out of your description of the Shape Water cantrip (Elemental Evil Player's Companion, p. 21, bold added).





  • You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.




All of your ideas involve seem to involve selectively changing part of the water to one color, and other parts to another color (e.g. changing the water on the legal document to spell out different words in some places, changing the color to be white in some parts of the die and black on others, changing the water to be white on some parts of the card and red on others to represent an ace, etc.). But since "the water must be changed in the same way throughout," this would most likely be impossible.



It might be possible to write a specific message in water on a paper or card, and then turn all that water black and opaque (or clear) as you desired. But you couldn't alter the message to fit your needs. You could argue that you can "cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate" and thus rewrite the messages or cards as you see fit. But "simple shapes" tends to mean polygons (i.e. closed shapes like triangles and squares), and usually would rule out more intricate shapes like writing.



Finally, it's quite debatable whether a wet card would be considered "an area of water" (or whether a wet document would be anything other than suspicious). You've suggested (in a comment) that the card would not be wet, but covered in "a light layer of colored frost." Note, however, that the spell does not give you the ability to melt ice, but only to freeze water. And ice cannot be moved or altered in appearance or shape by this spell: only water.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    yep, sure enough “You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.” src: media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/EE_PlayersCompanion.pdf
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    34 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    fandom is generally an unreliable source. I've seen mentioned a few times on rpgSE that they intentionally reword and modify things to avoid copyright. Whether or not that is true is not up to me to decide, but regardless fandom is unreliable.
    $endgroup$
    – Token
    33 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @CaffeineAddiction, you should consider adding the correct verbiage to your question. Comments aren't forever.
    $endgroup$
    – Token
    32 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Token pulled a direct excerpt from EE p21 itself
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    28 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    And while I could theoreticly layer 1 color of ice on top of another ... this would count as 4x instances of non-instantaneous effects. Yep ... this idea is officially busted. Ty, I will select this answer as correct in a few days if no one else comes up w/ something better.
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    18 mins ago



















2












$begingroup$


What are the limitations for using shape water for cheating and forgery?




The limitations are:




  • Maintaining line of sight and a clear path to the water.


  • Having water available to manipulate and not a dry color.


  • Being able to somehow hide your spellcasting from those that could discern what you are doing.


  • Following a strict adherence to the allowed uses of the spell enumerated in its description.



Other considerations:




  • Your uses of shape water are imaginative, though I imagine one does not roll dice or play cards with wet surfaces.


  • You shape water with that spell, not evaporated colors; are your play surfaces still damp?


  • Spells are not necessarily subtle, unless you are using the sorcerer's Subtle Spell metamagic. This would imply there is a good chance that someone will be on to you and your cheating.


  • You would have to cast this spell presumably more than once to continue to manipulate the water to your liking.


  • It is not immediately clear that shape water can manipulate ice or frost; you would have to wait for it to melt or dismiss that as an Action.







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    not damp, frozen ... a light layer of colored frost
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @CaffeineAddiction That brings you to at least 2 simultaneous effects: manipulate color and manipulate aggregation state. Furthermore I doubt that writing and markings of cards count as simple shape.
    $endgroup$
    – fabian
    51 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    @fabian I could agree to it being 2x effects. As far as the shape ... I guess it depends on how intricate the coloring can be. For instance if the shape was just a flat covering of the existing ink ... and the coloring was the part that maintained the new card state ... it could still work. I guess it then becomes a question of how intricate can the color mechanic of the spell be. Is it simply binary ... all one color? Or can you do paterns in the coloring.
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    42 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    A strict interpretation of the spell guarantees you a single color, as it states you can change the color. This implies one color and doesn't necessarily preclude multiple. Keep in mind "multiple colors" isn't guaranteed to you per strict RAW.
    $endgroup$
    – Token
    35 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    @CaffeineAddiction Isn't the frost going to start melting as soon as anyone handles it?
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    31 mins ago











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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









7












$begingroup$

One Line of This Spell Makes These Ideas Difficult



There is an essential phrase you (originally) left out of your description of the Shape Water cantrip (Elemental Evil Player's Companion, p. 21, bold added).





  • You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.




All of your ideas involve seem to involve selectively changing part of the water to one color, and other parts to another color (e.g. changing the water on the legal document to spell out different words in some places, changing the color to be white in some parts of the die and black on others, changing the water to be white on some parts of the card and red on others to represent an ace, etc.). But since "the water must be changed in the same way throughout," this would most likely be impossible.



It might be possible to write a specific message in water on a paper or card, and then turn all that water black and opaque (or clear) as you desired. But you couldn't alter the message to fit your needs. You could argue that you can "cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate" and thus rewrite the messages or cards as you see fit. But "simple shapes" tends to mean polygons (i.e. closed shapes like triangles and squares), and usually would rule out more intricate shapes like writing.



Finally, it's quite debatable whether a wet card would be considered "an area of water" (or whether a wet document would be anything other than suspicious). You've suggested (in a comment) that the card would not be wet, but covered in "a light layer of colored frost." Note, however, that the spell does not give you the ability to melt ice, but only to freeze water. And ice cannot be moved or altered in appearance or shape by this spell: only water.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    yep, sure enough “You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.” src: media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/EE_PlayersCompanion.pdf
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    34 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    fandom is generally an unreliable source. I've seen mentioned a few times on rpgSE that they intentionally reword and modify things to avoid copyright. Whether or not that is true is not up to me to decide, but regardless fandom is unreliable.
    $endgroup$
    – Token
    33 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @CaffeineAddiction, you should consider adding the correct verbiage to your question. Comments aren't forever.
    $endgroup$
    – Token
    32 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Token pulled a direct excerpt from EE p21 itself
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    28 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    And while I could theoreticly layer 1 color of ice on top of another ... this would count as 4x instances of non-instantaneous effects. Yep ... this idea is officially busted. Ty, I will select this answer as correct in a few days if no one else comes up w/ something better.
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    18 mins ago
















7












$begingroup$

One Line of This Spell Makes These Ideas Difficult



There is an essential phrase you (originally) left out of your description of the Shape Water cantrip (Elemental Evil Player's Companion, p. 21, bold added).





  • You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.




All of your ideas involve seem to involve selectively changing part of the water to one color, and other parts to another color (e.g. changing the water on the legal document to spell out different words in some places, changing the color to be white in some parts of the die and black on others, changing the water to be white on some parts of the card and red on others to represent an ace, etc.). But since "the water must be changed in the same way throughout," this would most likely be impossible.



It might be possible to write a specific message in water on a paper or card, and then turn all that water black and opaque (or clear) as you desired. But you couldn't alter the message to fit your needs. You could argue that you can "cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate" and thus rewrite the messages or cards as you see fit. But "simple shapes" tends to mean polygons (i.e. closed shapes like triangles and squares), and usually would rule out more intricate shapes like writing.



Finally, it's quite debatable whether a wet card would be considered "an area of water" (or whether a wet document would be anything other than suspicious). You've suggested (in a comment) that the card would not be wet, but covered in "a light layer of colored frost." Note, however, that the spell does not give you the ability to melt ice, but only to freeze water. And ice cannot be moved or altered in appearance or shape by this spell: only water.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    yep, sure enough “You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.” src: media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/EE_PlayersCompanion.pdf
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    34 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    fandom is generally an unreliable source. I've seen mentioned a few times on rpgSE that they intentionally reword and modify things to avoid copyright. Whether or not that is true is not up to me to decide, but regardless fandom is unreliable.
    $endgroup$
    – Token
    33 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @CaffeineAddiction, you should consider adding the correct verbiage to your question. Comments aren't forever.
    $endgroup$
    – Token
    32 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Token pulled a direct excerpt from EE p21 itself
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    28 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    And while I could theoreticly layer 1 color of ice on top of another ... this would count as 4x instances of non-instantaneous effects. Yep ... this idea is officially busted. Ty, I will select this answer as correct in a few days if no one else comes up w/ something better.
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    18 mins ago














7












7








7





$begingroup$

One Line of This Spell Makes These Ideas Difficult



There is an essential phrase you (originally) left out of your description of the Shape Water cantrip (Elemental Evil Player's Companion, p. 21, bold added).





  • You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.




All of your ideas involve seem to involve selectively changing part of the water to one color, and other parts to another color (e.g. changing the water on the legal document to spell out different words in some places, changing the color to be white in some parts of the die and black on others, changing the water to be white on some parts of the card and red on others to represent an ace, etc.). But since "the water must be changed in the same way throughout," this would most likely be impossible.



It might be possible to write a specific message in water on a paper or card, and then turn all that water black and opaque (or clear) as you desired. But you couldn't alter the message to fit your needs. You could argue that you can "cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate" and thus rewrite the messages or cards as you see fit. But "simple shapes" tends to mean polygons (i.e. closed shapes like triangles and squares), and usually would rule out more intricate shapes like writing.



Finally, it's quite debatable whether a wet card would be considered "an area of water" (or whether a wet document would be anything other than suspicious). You've suggested (in a comment) that the card would not be wet, but covered in "a light layer of colored frost." Note, however, that the spell does not give you the ability to melt ice, but only to freeze water. And ice cannot be moved or altered in appearance or shape by this spell: only water.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



One Line of This Spell Makes These Ideas Difficult



There is an essential phrase you (originally) left out of your description of the Shape Water cantrip (Elemental Evil Player's Companion, p. 21, bold added).





  • You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.




All of your ideas involve seem to involve selectively changing part of the water to one color, and other parts to another color (e.g. changing the water on the legal document to spell out different words in some places, changing the color to be white in some parts of the die and black on others, changing the water to be white on some parts of the card and red on others to represent an ace, etc.). But since "the water must be changed in the same way throughout," this would most likely be impossible.



It might be possible to write a specific message in water on a paper or card, and then turn all that water black and opaque (or clear) as you desired. But you couldn't alter the message to fit your needs. You could argue that you can "cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate" and thus rewrite the messages or cards as you see fit. But "simple shapes" tends to mean polygons (i.e. closed shapes like triangles and squares), and usually would rule out more intricate shapes like writing.



Finally, it's quite debatable whether a wet card would be considered "an area of water" (or whether a wet document would be anything other than suspicious). You've suggested (in a comment) that the card would not be wet, but covered in "a light layer of colored frost." Note, however, that the spell does not give you the ability to melt ice, but only to freeze water. And ice cannot be moved or altered in appearance or shape by this spell: only water.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 19 mins ago

























answered 40 mins ago









GandalfmeansmeGandalfmeansme

18.8k368117




18.8k368117












  • $begingroup$
    yep, sure enough “You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.” src: media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/EE_PlayersCompanion.pdf
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    34 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    fandom is generally an unreliable source. I've seen mentioned a few times on rpgSE that they intentionally reword and modify things to avoid copyright. Whether or not that is true is not up to me to decide, but regardless fandom is unreliable.
    $endgroup$
    – Token
    33 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @CaffeineAddiction, you should consider adding the correct verbiage to your question. Comments aren't forever.
    $endgroup$
    – Token
    32 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Token pulled a direct excerpt from EE p21 itself
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    28 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    And while I could theoreticly layer 1 color of ice on top of another ... this would count as 4x instances of non-instantaneous effects. Yep ... this idea is officially busted. Ty, I will select this answer as correct in a few days if no one else comes up w/ something better.
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    18 mins ago


















  • $begingroup$
    yep, sure enough “You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.” src: media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/EE_PlayersCompanion.pdf
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    34 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    fandom is generally an unreliable source. I've seen mentioned a few times on rpgSE that they intentionally reword and modify things to avoid copyright. Whether or not that is true is not up to me to decide, but regardless fandom is unreliable.
    $endgroup$
    – Token
    33 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @CaffeineAddiction, you should consider adding the correct verbiage to your question. Comments aren't forever.
    $endgroup$
    – Token
    32 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Token pulled a direct excerpt from EE p21 itself
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    28 mins ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    And while I could theoreticly layer 1 color of ice on top of another ... this would count as 4x instances of non-instantaneous effects. Yep ... this idea is officially busted. Ty, I will select this answer as correct in a few days if no one else comes up w/ something better.
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    18 mins ago
















$begingroup$
yep, sure enough “You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.” src: media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/EE_PlayersCompanion.pdf
$endgroup$
– CaffeineAddiction
34 mins ago






$begingroup$
yep, sure enough “You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.” src: media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/EE_PlayersCompanion.pdf
$endgroup$
– CaffeineAddiction
34 mins ago














$begingroup$
fandom is generally an unreliable source. I've seen mentioned a few times on rpgSE that they intentionally reword and modify things to avoid copyright. Whether or not that is true is not up to me to decide, but regardless fandom is unreliable.
$endgroup$
– Token
33 mins ago




$begingroup$
fandom is generally an unreliable source. I've seen mentioned a few times on rpgSE that they intentionally reword and modify things to avoid copyright. Whether or not that is true is not up to me to decide, but regardless fandom is unreliable.
$endgroup$
– Token
33 mins ago




1




1




$begingroup$
@CaffeineAddiction, you should consider adding the correct verbiage to your question. Comments aren't forever.
$endgroup$
– Token
32 mins ago




$begingroup$
@CaffeineAddiction, you should consider adding the correct verbiage to your question. Comments aren't forever.
$endgroup$
– Token
32 mins ago




1




1




$begingroup$
@Token pulled a direct excerpt from EE p21 itself
$endgroup$
– CaffeineAddiction
28 mins ago




$begingroup$
@Token pulled a direct excerpt from EE p21 itself
$endgroup$
– CaffeineAddiction
28 mins ago




1




1




$begingroup$
And while I could theoreticly layer 1 color of ice on top of another ... this would count as 4x instances of non-instantaneous effects. Yep ... this idea is officially busted. Ty, I will select this answer as correct in a few days if no one else comes up w/ something better.
$endgroup$
– CaffeineAddiction
18 mins ago




$begingroup$
And while I could theoreticly layer 1 color of ice on top of another ... this would count as 4x instances of non-instantaneous effects. Yep ... this idea is officially busted. Ty, I will select this answer as correct in a few days if no one else comes up w/ something better.
$endgroup$
– CaffeineAddiction
18 mins ago













2












$begingroup$


What are the limitations for using shape water for cheating and forgery?




The limitations are:




  • Maintaining line of sight and a clear path to the water.


  • Having water available to manipulate and not a dry color.


  • Being able to somehow hide your spellcasting from those that could discern what you are doing.


  • Following a strict adherence to the allowed uses of the spell enumerated in its description.



Other considerations:




  • Your uses of shape water are imaginative, though I imagine one does not roll dice or play cards with wet surfaces.


  • You shape water with that spell, not evaporated colors; are your play surfaces still damp?


  • Spells are not necessarily subtle, unless you are using the sorcerer's Subtle Spell metamagic. This would imply there is a good chance that someone will be on to you and your cheating.


  • You would have to cast this spell presumably more than once to continue to manipulate the water to your liking.


  • It is not immediately clear that shape water can manipulate ice or frost; you would have to wait for it to melt or dismiss that as an Action.







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    not damp, frozen ... a light layer of colored frost
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @CaffeineAddiction That brings you to at least 2 simultaneous effects: manipulate color and manipulate aggregation state. Furthermore I doubt that writing and markings of cards count as simple shape.
    $endgroup$
    – fabian
    51 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    @fabian I could agree to it being 2x effects. As far as the shape ... I guess it depends on how intricate the coloring can be. For instance if the shape was just a flat covering of the existing ink ... and the coloring was the part that maintained the new card state ... it could still work. I guess it then becomes a question of how intricate can the color mechanic of the spell be. Is it simply binary ... all one color? Or can you do paterns in the coloring.
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    42 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    A strict interpretation of the spell guarantees you a single color, as it states you can change the color. This implies one color and doesn't necessarily preclude multiple. Keep in mind "multiple colors" isn't guaranteed to you per strict RAW.
    $endgroup$
    – Token
    35 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    @CaffeineAddiction Isn't the frost going to start melting as soon as anyone handles it?
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    31 mins ago
















2












$begingroup$


What are the limitations for using shape water for cheating and forgery?




The limitations are:




  • Maintaining line of sight and a clear path to the water.


  • Having water available to manipulate and not a dry color.


  • Being able to somehow hide your spellcasting from those that could discern what you are doing.


  • Following a strict adherence to the allowed uses of the spell enumerated in its description.



Other considerations:




  • Your uses of shape water are imaginative, though I imagine one does not roll dice or play cards with wet surfaces.


  • You shape water with that spell, not evaporated colors; are your play surfaces still damp?


  • Spells are not necessarily subtle, unless you are using the sorcerer's Subtle Spell metamagic. This would imply there is a good chance that someone will be on to you and your cheating.


  • You would have to cast this spell presumably more than once to continue to manipulate the water to your liking.


  • It is not immediately clear that shape water can manipulate ice or frost; you would have to wait for it to melt or dismiss that as an Action.







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    not damp, frozen ... a light layer of colored frost
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @CaffeineAddiction That brings you to at least 2 simultaneous effects: manipulate color and manipulate aggregation state. Furthermore I doubt that writing and markings of cards count as simple shape.
    $endgroup$
    – fabian
    51 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    @fabian I could agree to it being 2x effects. As far as the shape ... I guess it depends on how intricate the coloring can be. For instance if the shape was just a flat covering of the existing ink ... and the coloring was the part that maintained the new card state ... it could still work. I guess it then becomes a question of how intricate can the color mechanic of the spell be. Is it simply binary ... all one color? Or can you do paterns in the coloring.
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    42 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    A strict interpretation of the spell guarantees you a single color, as it states you can change the color. This implies one color and doesn't necessarily preclude multiple. Keep in mind "multiple colors" isn't guaranteed to you per strict RAW.
    $endgroup$
    – Token
    35 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    @CaffeineAddiction Isn't the frost going to start melting as soon as anyone handles it?
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    31 mins ago














2












2








2





$begingroup$


What are the limitations for using shape water for cheating and forgery?




The limitations are:




  • Maintaining line of sight and a clear path to the water.


  • Having water available to manipulate and not a dry color.


  • Being able to somehow hide your spellcasting from those that could discern what you are doing.


  • Following a strict adherence to the allowed uses of the spell enumerated in its description.



Other considerations:




  • Your uses of shape water are imaginative, though I imagine one does not roll dice or play cards with wet surfaces.


  • You shape water with that spell, not evaporated colors; are your play surfaces still damp?


  • Spells are not necessarily subtle, unless you are using the sorcerer's Subtle Spell metamagic. This would imply there is a good chance that someone will be on to you and your cheating.


  • You would have to cast this spell presumably more than once to continue to manipulate the water to your liking.


  • It is not immediately clear that shape water can manipulate ice or frost; you would have to wait for it to melt or dismiss that as an Action.







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$




What are the limitations for using shape water for cheating and forgery?




The limitations are:




  • Maintaining line of sight and a clear path to the water.


  • Having water available to manipulate and not a dry color.


  • Being able to somehow hide your spellcasting from those that could discern what you are doing.


  • Following a strict adherence to the allowed uses of the spell enumerated in its description.



Other considerations:




  • Your uses of shape water are imaginative, though I imagine one does not roll dice or play cards with wet surfaces.


  • You shape water with that spell, not evaporated colors; are your play surfaces still damp?


  • Spells are not necessarily subtle, unless you are using the sorcerer's Subtle Spell metamagic. This would imply there is a good chance that someone will be on to you and your cheating.


  • You would have to cast this spell presumably more than once to continue to manipulate the water to your liking.


  • It is not immediately clear that shape water can manipulate ice or frost; you would have to wait for it to melt or dismiss that as an Action.








share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 55 mins ago

























answered 1 hour ago









TokenToken

64311




64311












  • $begingroup$
    not damp, frozen ... a light layer of colored frost
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @CaffeineAddiction That brings you to at least 2 simultaneous effects: manipulate color and manipulate aggregation state. Furthermore I doubt that writing and markings of cards count as simple shape.
    $endgroup$
    – fabian
    51 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    @fabian I could agree to it being 2x effects. As far as the shape ... I guess it depends on how intricate the coloring can be. For instance if the shape was just a flat covering of the existing ink ... and the coloring was the part that maintained the new card state ... it could still work. I guess it then becomes a question of how intricate can the color mechanic of the spell be. Is it simply binary ... all one color? Or can you do paterns in the coloring.
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    42 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    A strict interpretation of the spell guarantees you a single color, as it states you can change the color. This implies one color and doesn't necessarily preclude multiple. Keep in mind "multiple colors" isn't guaranteed to you per strict RAW.
    $endgroup$
    – Token
    35 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    @CaffeineAddiction Isn't the frost going to start melting as soon as anyone handles it?
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    31 mins ago


















  • $begingroup$
    not damp, frozen ... a light layer of colored frost
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @CaffeineAddiction That brings you to at least 2 simultaneous effects: manipulate color and manipulate aggregation state. Furthermore I doubt that writing and markings of cards count as simple shape.
    $endgroup$
    – fabian
    51 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    @fabian I could agree to it being 2x effects. As far as the shape ... I guess it depends on how intricate the coloring can be. For instance if the shape was just a flat covering of the existing ink ... and the coloring was the part that maintained the new card state ... it could still work. I guess it then becomes a question of how intricate can the color mechanic of the spell be. Is it simply binary ... all one color? Or can you do paterns in the coloring.
    $endgroup$
    – CaffeineAddiction
    42 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    A strict interpretation of the spell guarantees you a single color, as it states you can change the color. This implies one color and doesn't necessarily preclude multiple. Keep in mind "multiple colors" isn't guaranteed to you per strict RAW.
    $endgroup$
    – Token
    35 mins ago












  • $begingroup$
    @CaffeineAddiction Isn't the frost going to start melting as soon as anyone handles it?
    $endgroup$
    – Mark Wells
    31 mins ago
















$begingroup$
not damp, frozen ... a light layer of colored frost
$endgroup$
– CaffeineAddiction
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
not damp, frozen ... a light layer of colored frost
$endgroup$
– CaffeineAddiction
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
@CaffeineAddiction That brings you to at least 2 simultaneous effects: manipulate color and manipulate aggregation state. Furthermore I doubt that writing and markings of cards count as simple shape.
$endgroup$
– fabian
51 mins ago






$begingroup$
@CaffeineAddiction That brings you to at least 2 simultaneous effects: manipulate color and manipulate aggregation state. Furthermore I doubt that writing and markings of cards count as simple shape.
$endgroup$
– fabian
51 mins ago














$begingroup$
@fabian I could agree to it being 2x effects. As far as the shape ... I guess it depends on how intricate the coloring can be. For instance if the shape was just a flat covering of the existing ink ... and the coloring was the part that maintained the new card state ... it could still work. I guess it then becomes a question of how intricate can the color mechanic of the spell be. Is it simply binary ... all one color? Or can you do paterns in the coloring.
$endgroup$
– CaffeineAddiction
42 mins ago




$begingroup$
@fabian I could agree to it being 2x effects. As far as the shape ... I guess it depends on how intricate the coloring can be. For instance if the shape was just a flat covering of the existing ink ... and the coloring was the part that maintained the new card state ... it could still work. I guess it then becomes a question of how intricate can the color mechanic of the spell be. Is it simply binary ... all one color? Or can you do paterns in the coloring.
$endgroup$
– CaffeineAddiction
42 mins ago












$begingroup$
A strict interpretation of the spell guarantees you a single color, as it states you can change the color. This implies one color and doesn't necessarily preclude multiple. Keep in mind "multiple colors" isn't guaranteed to you per strict RAW.
$endgroup$
– Token
35 mins ago






$begingroup$
A strict interpretation of the spell guarantees you a single color, as it states you can change the color. This implies one color and doesn't necessarily preclude multiple. Keep in mind "multiple colors" isn't guaranteed to you per strict RAW.
$endgroup$
– Token
35 mins ago














$begingroup$
@CaffeineAddiction Isn't the frost going to start melting as soon as anyone handles it?
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
31 mins ago




$begingroup$
@CaffeineAddiction Isn't the frost going to start melting as soon as anyone handles it?
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
31 mins ago


















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